Why do agencies struggle with video?

Episode 53 Why do agencies struggle with video.txt
English (US)

01:00:00.200 — 01:00:04.160 · Speaker 1
And now you've got to introduce video and you could sell it for five months anymore.


01:00:04.200 — 01:00:06.960 · Speaker 2
It's just too expensive to produce video at scale.


01:00:07.320 — 01:00:12.720 · Speaker 3
So how do the brands get into entertainment without creating adverts?


01:00:13.800 — 01:00:31.880 · Speaker 1
Welcome back to the podcast cave. I'm joined today by Carl and Richard, and we are going to be talking about how the video landscape has changed for agencies and production companies, and what that means for both business types in this age of content creation. Hi, guys.


01:00:31.920 — 01:00:32.680 · Speaker 3
Hi, Jan.


01:00:33.240 — 01:00:39.320 · Speaker 1
I want to talk about, um, how agencies have had to adapt.


01:00:39.880 — 01:00:40.600 · Speaker 3
And evolve.


01:00:40.600 — 01:00:42.800 · Speaker 1
And evolve in recent years.


01:00:44.040 — 01:00:58.200 · Speaker 1
I maybe can't say exactly how long. Maybe the last ten years. Yeah, we've had to go from being traditional, focused, traditional marketing focused, um, to understanding digital.


01:00:59.240 — 01:01:05.239 · Speaker 1
And now, more recently, understanding content creation at scale.


01:01:05.400 — 01:01:05.800 · Speaker 3
Video.


01:01:05.800 — 01:01:07.440 · Speaker 1
And in particular video.


01:01:08.360 — 01:01:08.800 · Speaker 2
Hmm.


01:01:09.680 — 01:01:16.200 · Speaker 1
What have your experience has been in this changing landscape called you on a start?


01:01:16.240 — 01:02:16.440 · Speaker 3
Yeah, sure. So me not being in agencies all the time, but being outside of them and inside of them. Mhm. Um, I think there was a massive shift when social media kicked in. Right. But it was gradual. It was it, it took a while for businesses to even get websites. And do you remember that period of time. Um, and I think the skills were transferable and because the platforms were in the infancy stage.

Um, I think it was a shock to the system, but it was a gradual shift in learning. Yeah. I don't know if you guys felt that in your your business. Um, But what really changed for me was seeing brands trying to create content. Yeah. Um, so, so just to understand my perspective is the agencies in my world always took advantage of the eyeballs and the ad break, right?


01:02:16.480 — 01:02:17.440 · Speaker 1
Right. Okay.


01:02:17.480 — 01:02:20.600 · Speaker 3
So they never had to create eyeballs or.


01:02:20.600 — 01:02:21.480 · Speaker 1
Eyeballs, were there?


01:02:21.520 — 01:02:41.560 · Speaker 3
The eyeballs were there. It was. Yes. Our job on the content side were how we saw content to create the eyeballs, to create the entertainment that was worthy of an ad break. And while there was an ad break, agencies would put their brands in that ad break and take advantage of the eyeballs we create. That was the business model.


01:02:41.560 — 01:02:43.840 · Speaker 1
And that's very much a TV focus.


01:02:43.880 — 01:03:10.640 · Speaker 3
That's very much TV focus. Um, but at the same time, at the time where brands were going, hey, we want to create video content. They were coming. Agencies were coming to to production houses and going, you need to help us create this content. But the ad agencies didn't understand what content was and how to create eyeballs.

They just want to plot logos everywhere and the production companies


01:03:11.760 — 01:03:12.680 · Speaker 3
didn't care.


01:03:12.680 — 01:03:15.360 · Speaker 2
Full blast logos? Yeah, blast logos.


01:03:15.920 — 01:03:37.800 · Speaker 3
But the production companies in the same breath really misunderstood and didn't really care much for the brand objectives. Um, and in my career, that was where the sweet spot came in because I had done marketing and, uh, television production. Um, and then when I was in the agencies, when I joined agencies, social media was already a thing.


01:03:37.840 — 01:03:38.240 · Speaker 1
Right.


01:03:38.280 — 01:03:42.120 · Speaker 3
So I don't know how you guys experienced the early changes.


01:03:42.120 — 01:04:04.200 · Speaker 2
I think that that's like for agencies, there's like a overproduction fallacy or trap or something like they're so used to the highly polished gloss commercials on TV and stuff like that, that like the concept of producing video at scale just didn't conform to their workflows or like it was. It was feather mobile.


01:04:04.520 — 01:04:07.240 · Speaker 1
And maybe impossible. You can't get that.


01:04:07.280 — 01:04:07.680 · Speaker 2
You can't.


01:04:07.880 — 01:04:08.560 · Speaker 1
Live production.


01:04:08.560 — 01:04:26.640 · Speaker 2
Value. What happens is like just the mindset of like and then the tendency to overengineered the process. And then because you've overengineered the process, your clients can't afford you anymore because it's just too expensive to produce video at scale. Well, at that level that they are kind of expecting.


01:04:26.680 — 01:04:33.080 · Speaker 3
And used to because the audience was used to high quality video. But that high quality video came with a huge price tag.


01:04:33.120 — 01:04:42.120 · Speaker 1
And what's interesting now is actually the kind of content that gets the most engagement for brands is typically UGC. They didn't even make it.


01:04:42.160 — 01:04:43.760 · Speaker 2
Yeah. And it's the lowest.


01:04:43.960 — 01:04:45.200 · Speaker 1
The lowest production.


01:04:45.200 — 01:04:47.200 · Speaker 2
Value like low for video.


01:04:47.240 — 01:04:59.720 · Speaker 1
100%. The like low for stuff is now where um content creation needs to be going either created authentically using real customers or


01:05:01.320 — 01:05:13.040 · Speaker 1
created to be made to look like UGC. But that kind of content is is is really what people are, um, clicking on and engaging with.


01:05:13.080 — 01:05:39.480 · Speaker 3
So you don't think that's just a little bit of a trend though? Because what I've seen in video content, and I'm being the devil's advocate here, is, is that we, the agencies are struggling to get cut through. Right. And the audiences see marketing agency videos from a mile away and become, uh, advertising adverse.

So the stuff that user generated content, um, looks different.


01:05:39.680 — 01:06:14.680 · Speaker 1
Yes. Well, that's that's exactly it. And it potentially is a trend. And I think also now with the age of AI being this next sort of wave that we all need to come to terms with is that the the content being made is getting easier, but the quality is getting worse. The creative thought is mostly non-existent, and so when you see some real UGC, you actually do feel a connection with it because it actually feels like something that's not marketing.


01:06:14.800 — 01:06:15.120 · Speaker 3
Yeah.


01:06:15.120 — 01:06:43.520 · Speaker 1
But I also think that over time that wave will pass because, I mean, we already see it now with certain influencers. They're not in their niche anymore. And they'll be talking baby products one minute and car parts the next. And there's a disconnect. So I feel also that that's a space that this UGC looking kind of content might not work forever.

But right now it is.


01:06:43.560 — 01:06:51.559 · Speaker 3
But don't you also think that marketing theory, although it's evolved over the last 20 years, you come across


01:06:52.680 — 01:06:59.200 · Speaker 3
people that are on different parts of that journey? Yes. So there are still people that are


01:07:00.440 — 01:07:10.120 · Speaker 3
here at newsletter. Newsletter as a basic. Yeah. And there's still people at let's post pretty. Pictures which is not content. Okay.


01:07:10.200 — 01:07:11.120 · Speaker 1
Well it is.


01:07:11.160 — 01:07:11.480 · Speaker 3
Not.


01:07:11.480 — 01:07:12.320 · Speaker 2
Video content.


01:07:12.360 — 01:07:17.600 · Speaker 3
It's not content. It's doesn't attract people. It's just pretty pictures. It doesn't really move the needle.


01:07:17.680 — 01:07:19.920 · Speaker 1
Circling back to that okay.


01:07:20.360 — 01:07:21.480 · Speaker 3
It's not really just.


01:07:21.480 — 01:07:23.520 · Speaker 2
Pretty pictures blasted with logos.


01:07:23.680 — 01:07:28.320 · Speaker 3
Pretty pictures blast with logos. No one is going to go out there. Way to go view that.


01:07:28.360 — 01:07:30.920 · Speaker 1
Fine. But it doesn't make it not content.


01:07:31.280 — 01:07:38.799 · Speaker 3
No, all content is is a medium of something that I want to go watch. Well, that's good content


01:07:40.360 — 01:07:40.880 · Speaker 3
okay.


01:07:41.240 — 01:07:41.960 · Speaker 1
Let's move on.


01:07:42.000 — 01:07:46.440 · Speaker 3
So so then pretty pictures is bad content okay.


01:07:46.440 — 01:07:48.800 · Speaker 2
Anyway, I want to get to the bottom of this. Okay.


01:07:49.040 — 01:07:57.200 · Speaker 3
So what was I saying. So so then there's people still posting pretty pictures doing nothing for the brands and going, Happy Mother's Day.


01:07:57.360 — 01:08:02.440 · Speaker 2
Are you saying they're on different parts of their their marketing journey? Yeah. Okay.


01:08:02.480 — 01:08:11.560 · Speaker 3
Um, and they, they do that for a while and they change and they go up. But it's not like the whole marketing spectrum has moved. People are in different places.


01:08:11.600 — 01:08:12.320 · Speaker 1
Definitely.


01:08:12.320 — 01:08:37.120 · Speaker 3
So where the in my opinion, the with the bigger brands and the big theory is going into is branded entertainment, real content. Um, that's where we in South Africa particularly, I spent a lot of time explaining to brands what the difference is between branded content, advertiser funded content, sponsorships, pretty pictures.


01:08:37.159 — 01:08:38.039 · Speaker 1
Advertising.


01:08:38.039 — 01:08:51.200 · Speaker 3
And advertising and marketing. They're all very different things, and I tend to feel like people clump it all together and want to create frivolous, bad content instead of doing what they have to.


01:08:51.240 — 01:08:58.520 · Speaker 1
Yes. Well, in our experience, typically that bad content plain picture may be blasted with.


01:09:00.800 — 01:10:36.000 · Speaker 1
That is, as a result of a lack of brand strategy. Just, um, a lack of education around what good content versus bad content even is. And, you know, for us, a lot of times, the starting point with the new client or a new business that's still in its early days, um, they don't even understand that they maybe don't need to be on social media for for some clients, it's a whole road of discovery about where they should even be in terms of the marketing tactics that are used.

So, you know, I think I totally agree with you that businesses are in different spaces in that marketing journey, but let's bring it back to video content. Yeah. So I see that in our current state. This is the challenge for a lot of creative agencies. We have been, for some of us that are older, traditionally trained.

We have evolved into digital spaces because our clients have pushed us there, and some agencies have done very well in that space and now become quite niche and expert in that space. And we see now this next sort of wave being about content creation beyond static images. It's video, it's podcasting, it's audio and visual.

And that was typically the space of a production company.


01:10:36.040 — 01:11:12.640 · Speaker 3
Yeah. But I mean, let's talk about different kinds of agencies. I mean, agencies and production have always been close, closely tied together. Right. So a creative agency traditionally outsourced all production, whether it was print or not, print or whatever. Right. Um, but now it's happened. And it's it's also how the production companies haven't evolved.

Is we a production company? A traditional production company is the traditional word again. So the old school production guys cannot serve an agency's needs anymore. And I think that's where this disconnect is.


01:11:12.920 — 01:11:15.560 · Speaker 1
The volume of content that the clients are needing.


01:11:15.840 — 01:11:16.880 · Speaker 3
And at the cost.


01:11:16.920 — 01:11:27.560 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, that's kind of what I was referring to is it's like the mindset is like it's a volume. And they're like, but it has to be polished and everything and it becomes unaffordable.


01:11:27.720 — 01:11:28.000 · Speaker 3
Yeah.


01:11:28.200 — 01:12:06.250 · Speaker 1
Well, if you think about what the cost to sell social media to a client before the tremendous volume of video was required, probably sets the bar for what you can sell social media for as an agency. So, you know, if you were if you were charging a client five grand a month for social media content and social media community management and those kinds of and the pretty pictures.

You now have to evolve to bring content in. That's actually going to be engaging for the user. And now you've got to introduce video and you can't sell it for five around a month anymore.


01:12:06.290 — 01:12:22.050 · Speaker 2
I think the sphere just keeps expanding. What you actually have to be doing as a brand and like, yes, it's used to be logo blasting and stuff like that. And no, no, no, it's then it became video, then it became um, I don't know.


01:12:22.090 — 01:12:24.330 · Speaker 3
Well now it's becoming branded entertainment.


01:12:25.290 — 01:12:35.330 · Speaker 1
Um, so that's a um, a topic or a, um, a term that I don't think a lot of people understand. Can you.


01:12:35.370 — 01:12:38.290 · Speaker 2
Can you list a whole bunch of different types? Why don't you?


01:12:38.450 — 01:12:40.210 · Speaker 3
Yeah, we have a podcast on it.


01:12:40.250 — 01:12:45.370 · Speaker 1
Tell us about branded entertainment. So no, no, seriously, define that please.


01:12:45.410 — 01:13:58.890 · Speaker 3
So, so branded entertainment is entertainment that creates brand behavior and might not necessarily have a logo anywhere on it, right? Completely funded by a brand. So you'll see Procter and Gamble now just launch their own in-house studio to create entertainment content. Um, they don't do pretty much anything with the brand, but the brand is paying for it all.

What they're doing is creating content that changes brand behavior. This is not something new. Uh, BMW did it in the late 1990s with the with the films that they made, the shorts with. Clever. And the idea is to create entertainment that I want to go watch because we've known the attention economy. Mhm.

Whether you're a game developer, a media agency, a creator, a brand, a news outlet, a newspaper, all of it comes through our screen? Yes. How do we get our target markets and the people how that we make money through to watch the screen on our content?


01:14:00.050 — 01:14:03.890 · Speaker 3
Traditionally, we don't switch on the TV to watch ads.


01:14:05.090 — 01:14:06.090 · Speaker 1
Never ever.


01:14:06.330 — 01:14:33.890 · Speaker 3
We don't go to social media to go check out the latest pretty picture of a product shoot. We don't. We go there to see content. That's why I don't call pre-purchase content. What we go to to find is entertainment. So how do the brands get into entertainment without creating adverts? Right. Yeti did it incredibly well.

They created a series of.


01:14:33.890 — 01:14:34.570 · Speaker 1
Documentary.


01:14:34.570 — 01:14:43.130 · Speaker 3
Commentaries. Um, you don't even see a cooler box in that in their films, but they are associated with extreme adventure. So?


01:14:43.130 — 01:14:58.330 · Speaker 1
So the idea there is that we're developing consumer behavior around getting outdoors, going on, on going on an adventure. And their belief is long term. Those people that are becoming adventure loving are going to buy Yeti products.


01:14:58.370 — 01:14:59.130 · Speaker 3
Yeah, because.


01:14:59.170 — 01:15:00.090 · Speaker 2
Red bull does it.


01:15:00.250 — 01:15:02.250 · Speaker 3
Red bull's one of the pioneers.


01:15:02.570 — 01:15:12.370 · Speaker 1
Maybe the classic marketing story about Michelin and how they developed the restaurant guide to get people to drive more so that they'd need more tires.


01:15:12.410 — 01:15:13.490 · Speaker 3
Brand behavior.


01:15:13.490 — 01:15:13.810 · Speaker 1
Is.


01:15:13.850 — 01:15:16.010 · Speaker 2
Is that is a bizarre one. But yeah.


01:15:16.050 — 01:15:18.690 · Speaker 1
Well, I mean, isn't it just so genius?


01:15:18.970 — 01:15:34.490 · Speaker 3
Um, Chipotle in the US did a drama series about cows that exploding. Um, to drive our drive in the idea that commercially grown beef is not good and grass fed beef is good.


01:15:34.530 — 01:15:34.730 · Speaker 1
Is.


01:15:34.730 — 01:15:55.530 · Speaker 3
Good. And that moved the consumer behavior from, uh, well, it was a little bit extreme, but funny, but obviously funny, but drove home the point to their consumer that their beef is better. Right. The logo is in the bottom right hand corner of the opening title, and the bottom right hand corner of the the the credits.


01:15:55.690 — 01:15:56.850 · Speaker 1
That's it. That's it.


01:15:56.970 — 01:16:02.890 · Speaker 3
And it was massively successful for that brand in the US. Now


01:16:03.970 — 01:16:35.050 · Speaker 3
I'm using a US example because they've got mass market with disposable income. That's not necessarily going to work in South Africa. So just hear me out. But the the principle of branded entertainment is that the brand owns the content, the brand funds the content, and the content is designed to entertain first and create brand association.

That's it. So we're not trying to show the features of the product.


01:16:35.090 — 01:16:35.330 · Speaker 1
Yeah.


01:16:35.370 — 01:16:46.250 · Speaker 3
It's not it's not a demo. Yes. It's not a feature set. It's not an interview with our CEO to convince you. Um, it's it's useful content that's entertaining.


01:16:46.290 — 01:16:46.930 · Speaker 1
Entertaining.


01:16:46.930 — 01:17:00.650 · Speaker 3
First. And that brings the brand association with it. So in the past, brands used to sponsor things like that. But you can sponsor somebody else's concept all you want. It's not going to create the brand behavior you want.


01:17:00.690 — 01:17:13.569 · Speaker 1
Well, I think those are the two things that make it quite important is the the entertainment means people will watch it. And maybe this is something that brands need to start thinking about now, as can we be entertainment first?


01:17:13.650 — 01:17:14.290 · Speaker 3
Yes.


01:17:14.730 — 01:17:18.930 · Speaker 1
Quite a challenge. The second thing is changing user behavior.


01:17:19.250 — 01:17:19.930 · Speaker 3
Yes.


01:17:19.930 — 01:17:29.890 · Speaker 1
So if it's doing those two things and you are comfortable with long term delivery of return, then it makes makes total sense.


01:17:29.930 — 01:18:00.290 · Speaker 3
This happens in entertainment by accident. Now sometimes I always use MasterChef Australia as a really good example. They by accident advertised the culinary industry in Australia. Yes. And boosted it to the next level. Yeah. You know, all of a sudden, twice the amount of schools opening. Fine dining went through the roof.

Consumers demand for fine dining went through the roof. Consumer demand for appliances went through the roof. They didn't start Master Chef, just.


01:18:00.330 — 01:18:02.010 · Speaker 1
Any of that in their planning.


01:18:02.050 — 01:18:02.690 · Speaker 3
To do that.


01:18:02.730 — 01:18:03.450 · Speaker 1
But.


01:18:04.050 — 01:18:14.570 · Speaker 3
Um, it served the purpose and it just shows the power of entertainment, how it can change the fabric of how a society thinks about something. Um, so.


01:18:14.610 — 01:18:29.570 · Speaker 1
Uh, my feeling is that what you've just described, so branded entertainment was at the right time? Yeah. Yes. Branded Entertainment is still going to be a project between a creative agency and a production house.


01:18:30.490 — 01:18:32.850 · Speaker 3
It's it's forming in very different ways.


01:18:32.890 — 01:18:33.570 · Speaker 1
Okay.


01:18:33.970 — 01:18:40.050 · Speaker 3
Uh, I think it depends on on the relationship a brand has with an agency and who the agency is.


01:18:40.090 — 01:18:44.690 · Speaker 2
I would imagine if they've got the budgets to do this kind of stuff, they've got an agency.


01:18:45.610 — 01:18:55.930 · Speaker 1
Um, and this a production company is pitching. And maybe you need to tell us that. Is that what your experience has been? That you would go to a brand directly and you would pitch the branded entertainment idea?


01:18:55.970 — 01:18:56.450 · Speaker 3
Exactly.


01:18:56.490 — 01:19:01.210 · Speaker 1
Oh, okay. All right. And I don't think it's the kind of thing that agencies are out there selling.


01:19:01.250 — 01:19:02.570 · Speaker 3
Think. Think about it's not.


01:19:02.610 — 01:19:03.170 · Speaker 1
No.


01:19:03.450 — 01:19:05.770 · Speaker 3
It's because it's it's very counter,


01:19:06.930 — 01:19:25.770 · Speaker 3
um, agency thinking in my experience. But then you get the ugly views of the world that kind of started it. So you can't say. I mean, agency is a very broad term. There's businesses and there's agencies and there's non agencies and there's groups and there's things. But take a look at Lego.


01:19:26.890 — 01:19:54.930 · Speaker 3
Lego has done one of the best branded entertainment exercises ever. And nobody nobody even notices it. The movies. Yeah. What's the brand behavior that want to build? Oh, I use the word kids. They want to create master builders. That's the term that they use in the movie, and they show the characters building and using their imagination.

So if you want to use your imagination and conquer the world, what do you have to do? Yes, play with Lego.


01:19:54.970 — 01:20:00.730 · Speaker 1
That one feels a little bit more obvious in a way. It's like literally called the Lego Movie.


01:20:00.770 — 01:20:04.370 · Speaker 3
Yeah, it sounds so obvious, but who thinks about it as advertising?


01:20:04.410 — 01:20:09.970 · Speaker 1
Yes. You know, I don't think it feels like advertising, but it also feels a little less like branded entertainment.


01:20:09.970 — 01:20:20.890 · Speaker 2
It feels like a very old school. Like if you think of, like, you know, Masters of the universe and stuff. It actually was a product. And then the TV show was made to sell the product.


01:20:21.050 — 01:20:58.290 · Speaker 3
That's branded entertainment, and it's called. That's why I say it's not a new it's not a new concept. Um, and it's hugely effective, especially in toys and kids, because you can't advertise to kids. So that industry had to find different ways to do it. Yeah. And play and entertainment is very linked. So so we see it a lot in that sector.

But the Lego movie is pure branded entertainment. Yeah. It's almost the definition of it. Yeah. It just doesn't feel like that. And we often forget it when we're talking about branding. It's because it is. It's so obvious. But it's also not because it is so entertaining.


01:20:58.330 — 01:21:04.970 · Speaker 2
It's also it's a bit Lego is a bit different to what like it is. The brand is just the entire time. It's all about the brand.


01:21:05.010 — 01:21:05.610 · Speaker 3
Yeah, it's very clear.


01:21:05.610 — 01:21:08.330 · Speaker 2
It's not like the Yeti ones, where it's just about the last.


01:21:08.370 — 01:21:10.410 · Speaker 1
Year and year two doesn't even exist in those.


01:21:10.410 — 01:21:10.930 · Speaker 3
Days.


01:21:10.970 — 01:21:13.250 · Speaker 2
So it's the same thing, but it's not a different type of it.


01:21:13.290 — 01:21:33.610 · Speaker 3
Yeah. It's just a really clever way of. And it suited that specific brand. Obviously every brand can be clever. The BMW films are mentioned that was made in the 90s were short action films that Clive Owen was a driver, and obviously he drove a BMW and he made BMW look so cool.


01:21:33.650 — 01:21:34.050 · Speaker 1
Yeah.


01:21:34.090 — 01:21:39.690 · Speaker 3
And that was it. Yeah. You know, and they wrecked a whole bunch of BMW on that.


01:21:39.970 — 01:21:40.690 · Speaker 1
It's still worth it.


01:21:40.690 — 01:21:58.130 · Speaker 3
I'm sure it was still worth it. Um, I think about the latest James Bond and the Land Rover campaign. That was so clever. Um, yes. Land Rover did very traditional advertising around it, but in the film they wreck a whole bunch of Land Rover Defenders, which is very counter driving.


01:21:58.130 — 01:21:59.930 · Speaker 1
Through the forest. Yeah, yeah.


01:21:59.970 — 01:22:01.610 · Speaker 2
Is he driving a Land Rover now?


01:22:01.770 — 01:22:03.090 · Speaker 3
No, not.


01:22:03.130 — 01:22:05.050 · Speaker 1
Just for a small portion.


01:22:05.370 — 01:22:06.610 · Speaker 2
James. Not.


01:22:06.610 — 01:22:08.330 · Speaker 3
You know, he's not.


01:22:08.370 — 01:22:08.810 · Speaker 2
Uh.


01:22:09.130 — 01:22:10.210 · Speaker 3
The bad guys were.


01:22:10.250 — 01:22:10.690 · Speaker 2
Oh, okay.


01:22:10.690 — 01:22:13.010 · Speaker 1
The bad guy. He was in one as well, wasn't he?


01:22:13.050 — 01:22:14.610 · Speaker 3
He was in a Mercedes Benz.


01:22:14.650 — 01:22:15.050 · Speaker 2
Well, that's.


01:22:15.050 — 01:22:15.370 · Speaker 1
Also.


01:22:15.570 — 01:22:17.530 · Speaker 2
How he got away in Aston Martins.


01:22:19.170 — 01:22:19.450 · Speaker 2
No.


01:22:19.970 — 01:22:23.690 · Speaker 3
I'll have to watch the movie again. But the point was that the bad guys were in the defenders.


01:22:23.730 — 01:22:24.530 · Speaker 1
The defenders.


01:22:24.570 — 01:22:43.250 · Speaker 3
And they they were super okay to wreck them. And then they made that part of the ad campaign. Okay, so what they did was while the the Land Rover was being wrecked in the film, they filmed their TV ad of this Land Rover just being destroyed, landing on its feet and.


01:22:43.570 — 01:22:44.610 · Speaker 1
Carrying on.


01:22:45.050 — 01:23:16.850 · Speaker 3
Whatever it was. I don't even remember. But it was. I watched that and went. This is so different. Yes, this is, this is this is cut through, you know. This is not just an ordinary automobile ad that we've seen to death. This is really clever. They've combined traditional product placements in James Bond and created some really cool content behind it.

Um, and there was lots of behind the scenes of why they did it and blah, blah, blah, which is the content part. Um, but yeah, you know.


01:23:17.770 — 01:23:41.410 · Speaker 1
We've also spoken about this to death on this podcast about how when you create a long piece of content, you can use that in multiple ways. And if you add an extra level of filming behind the scenes of the filming, then there's even further content that can be developed. So and a bit of planning, yeah, goes a long way.


01:23:41.450 — 01:23:43.329 · Speaker 3
Sorry, I didn't mean to But


01:23:44.490 — 01:24:18.090 · Speaker 3
it's also if you're going to invest into branded content, make sure you do your marketing bits and your tweaks and your social media posts and your pretty pictures part of that investment. Yeah. Then investments. Yes, it's branded entertainment, but that can't be your only spoken your marketing wheel, right?

You still need to advertise. So why not use that in the opportunity and the costs involved there to create all the other bits and pieces that feel a lot more authentic? Um, drive the main entertainment, but then you get all the spin offs.


01:24:18.130 — 01:24:24.290 · Speaker 1
Yeah, well, the behind the scenes stuff is always extremely interesting. Um, for for viewers.


01:24:24.330 — 01:24:25.130 · Speaker 3
It's good content.


01:24:25.170 — 01:24:33.090 · Speaker 1
It's great content. You know, the, um, the the nerds in us, we want to know how things are made. How did they get to that?


01:24:33.090 — 01:24:34.690 · Speaker 2
Especially in the age of AR.


01:24:35.730 — 01:24:40.050 · Speaker 2
There is actually behind the scenes content that isn't someone just typing a prompts. It's interesting.


01:24:40.090 — 01:24:43.170 · Speaker 3
It's proof of non of human involvements.


01:24:43.330 — 01:24:43.770 · Speaker 1
Yeah.


01:24:44.130 — 01:24:46.410 · Speaker 3
That's what it's become. Yeah. Yeah. Very important.


01:24:46.450 — 01:24:49.690 · Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay. So branded entertainment.


01:24:49.730 — 01:24:51.250 · Speaker 3
Sorry. That was a very long explanation.


01:24:51.290 — 01:24:51.810 · Speaker 1
That's okay.


01:24:51.850 — 01:25:00.450 · Speaker 3
We summarize it. Yeah. Branded entertainment is entertaining content designed to create brand behavior.


01:25:00.610 — 01:25:01.330 · Speaker 1
Right.


01:25:01.370 — 01:25:02.650 · Speaker 3
It's not a sponsorship.


01:25:02.690 — 01:25:04.970 · Speaker 1
It's not a sponsorship. And it's not a commercial.


01:25:05.010 — 01:25:06.010 · Speaker 3
And it's. Yeah.


01:25:06.890 — 01:25:07.609 · Speaker 1
So


01:25:08.610 — 01:25:20.850 · Speaker 1
I almost feel like we're going to need a whole separate discussion around this. But let's go back to the initial question around what does it look like for an agency that needs to produce video content on at scale?


01:25:23.090 — 01:25:24.370 · Speaker 1
How do we do that now?


01:25:24.610 — 01:25:45.330 · Speaker 3
I think there's a multitude way of of approaching it, because it obviously depends on the size of your agency and it decides it depends on the size of your brands and the accounts that you are over. Right. It's impossible for a production company, in my opinion. that's operating on a high level to produce


01:25:46.370 — 01:26:00.169 · Speaker 3
volume, low level content at the same time. They either need to be have a division in the production company that specializes in that, and that can be costed accordingly. And that's why creators


01:26:01.330 — 01:26:11.130 · Speaker 3
have kind of eaten into the business, because there are so low unmanned show. Their costs are minimal, and they're producing just as good content.


01:26:11.530 — 01:26:20.130 · Speaker 1
Their overheads are next to nothing in terms of gear. Yeah. You know, simple investments in 1 or 2 pieces of kit.


01:26:20.130 — 01:26:24.250 · Speaker 3
Because the kit has gotten so good. Yes. Now, do you not need a million rand?


01:26:24.850 — 01:26:43.290 · Speaker 2
I think you've got to, like, think about video very differently in an agency now. Like product target, like think about it like a like you would think about someone designing a social media post or something. You've got to produce video like that. Now. It's not a huge, big production.


01:26:43.330 — 01:26:44.410 · Speaker 1
Literal production?


01:26:44.450 — 01:26:45.090 · Speaker 2
Yeah.


01:26:45.130 — 01:26:45.770 · Speaker 1
Yeah.


01:26:46.090 — 01:26:54.330 · Speaker 2
Um. And you hire the right people. Hire people that understand fast paced editing. What works, what doesn't work.


01:26:54.370 — 01:26:59.130 · Speaker 1
What the current trends are. So what? What users are actually engaging with?


01:26:59.610 — 01:27:02.250 · Speaker 3
Yeah. And that's it to be part of the strategy.


01:27:02.290 — 01:28:02.450 · Speaker 1
Yes. Well, so I was about to say that call in our experience, the the creative team and the digital team have to be very closely knitted together because the digital team is looking at the data all the time. And we are discerning trends and making decisions about direction for creative. And the creative team needs to be able to take that information and think about the next pieces that they're building.

So, you know, if we have got people in our teams that are able to think creatively and output those, those deliverables in such a way that they can seamlessly flow through the digital team and, um, you know, make revisions that make sense based on the data we get back from that. That's, in our view, the best way to get good video content at more scale than going and having it in a shoot that covers two days with a big budget on a certain location and all of the trappings that I.


01:28:02.490 — 01:28:23.250 · Speaker 3
Think agencies mustn't try to be everything to everybody. And what I mean by that is you've got to, as an agency, be able to cover 80% of the video demand. Yeah. When your client then steps up and goes, I want a 32nd TVC. Don't try and take your videographer and go to DC.


01:28:23.490 — 01:28:24.130 · Speaker 1
Yeah, no.


01:28:24.930 — 01:28:32.690 · Speaker 3
It's often to go back to TVC, you know. Yeah, that's kind of where it falls over. Um, the advantage of still uh,


01:28:33.850 — 01:28:47.810 · Speaker 3
the, the disadvantage of the solo creator. I just wanted to mention that as well. And why agencies are still the better way to go is solo creators can get sick. They can get well. A broken arm?


01:28:47.850 — 01:28:49.450 · Speaker 1
Yes. And they reach capacity.


01:28:49.490 — 01:29:59.290 · Speaker 3
And they reach capacity really quickly. So what brands have found is that price point is really great, but it's super unsustainable. And they don't often stay with one person for very long. Especially when there's volume. So that's why it goes back to the agency again is and that's why the agency is exist.

We need someone to be our agent in the creative space. That's what an agency is. Yeah. So. So, yeah, I agree with you. Um, and the teams need to be close together. We're the same. And it's even worse because you've got very old school producers that are at the top of their game trying to adapt to this new world of brands, telling them what to do, not broadcasters.

And again, it's that old school thing of producers don't understand advertising and brands don't understand production. And what we've seen is beef. We need to put everybody into the room way early in development. Yes. Not at the execution phase in development. And be brave enough to talk around the table about what will work and what won't work.


01:29:59.330 — 01:29:59.850 · Speaker 1
And why.


01:29:59.850 — 01:30:19.210 · Speaker 3
And why. Um, to get those branded that brand content out there. Uh, I think the most successful projects have been the ones where creators understand what the brand needs, and the brand understands what the creator needs. But often we don't see that happening. Yeah. One of the reasons is because the agency sits in between sometimes.


01:30:20.050 — 01:30:31.090 · Speaker 1
Yes. And if they're too cagey about letting those two parties speak to one another, it ends up being so detrimental for all involved. But, you know, we see that. We see that all the time.


01:30:31.450 — 01:31:14.890 · Speaker 2
I think from a purely practical point of view, if the agency's in the middle, the feedback loop gets really, really messed up. Like it's just. It's also like where I think an agency struggles sometimes is dealing with video and the feedback process. And like, I mean, the client looks at it and wants a change at the beginning in a kind of like it's not as quick to make a change as it is to make a change to a blog post or a a brochure or something like that.

It like can be quite painful. So I think there's a little bit of education required with the client how to deliver feedback. Maybe some like strict feedback processes because I know in our agency when like changes to a video are


01:31:16.050 — 01:31:19.170 · Speaker 2
quite a big thing sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.


01:31:19.210 — 01:31:20.650 · Speaker 4
Well especially if the talent's.


01:31:20.690 — 01:31:22.130 · Speaker 1
Not in the room anymore. And now.


01:31:22.130 — 01:31:22.250 · Speaker 2
They.


01:31:22.250 — 01:31:27.490 · Speaker 1
Want to, you know, make a change where you kind of think to yourself, how would that be physically possible.


01:31:27.730 — 01:31:27.970 · Speaker 4
Yeah.


01:31:28.010 — 01:31:29.650 · Speaker 1
So cameras are no longer rolling.


01:31:29.690 — 01:31:30.130 · Speaker 3
So again.


01:31:30.170 — 01:31:31.050 · Speaker 2
Excellent post.


01:31:31.090 — 01:31:32.050 · Speaker 4
This is this is where.


01:31:32.050 — 01:32:17.650 · Speaker 3
Experience comes in with producing for brands where you set the expectations upfront really clearly. And if you have an experienced producer, these problems go away because you can walk alongside the brand and, um, make sure that their needs are met within the scope. I've never had a brand that I've worked with that I've worked properly with.

Turn around and say to me, uh, I need, I need you to change the sky to purple because it needs to be a sunset now, not a moonlight scene. Um, if the process is done properly, the video is fine. But I think what happens in agencies, to be honest, is that the video element is underestimated.


01:32:17.690 — 01:32:18.050 · Speaker 4
Yeah.


01:32:18.690 — 01:32:20.970 · Speaker 2
We pre-production years experience a lot of them.


01:32:21.010 — 01:32:37.210 · Speaker 3
Yeah, the pre-production is not done, and part of pre-production before pre-production is development. That's not done properly. Yeah. So so often brands rightly so. One changes because nothing was discussed with them. Yeah Previously. Yeah. That's how I feel.


01:32:37.250 — 01:32:43.130 · Speaker 1
At least all the script that they signed off on was never shown to the production company. So the production company.


01:32:43.330 — 01:32:45.450 · Speaker 4
You know, gets the real bad. Yeah. Well, you.


01:32:45.450 — 01:32:51.290 · Speaker 1
Know, they, they get they get what they have to produce and they haven't been able to weigh in earlier.


01:32:51.330 — 01:32:53.530 · Speaker 2
The editors left trying to find the story.


01:32:54.290 — 01:32:55.170 · Speaker 4
And also, yeah.


01:32:55.210 — 01:33:09.410 · Speaker 3
I think there's a bit of a misalignment on script. For example, say you sign off a script and it's not a TVC, it's social media or it's an unscripted or reality or something. The scripts change on set.


01:33:09.530 — 01:33:10.010 · Speaker 4
Mhm.


01:33:10.970 — 01:33:31.010 · Speaker 3
Even TV's changed drastically on set. Um, and I think some brands don't get that if they haven't been on set. So we will often take new clients and say please come on to set. Some producers will go, oh, we don't want client on set. They interrupt. They will say that. That's the old school thing because they.


01:33:31.050 — 01:33:31.410 · Speaker 4
Slow.


01:33:31.410 — 01:33:31.930 · Speaker 3
The process.


01:33:32.090 — 01:33:33.010 · Speaker 1
And that is. And that is.


01:33:33.010 — 01:33:33.410 · Speaker 4
True.


01:33:33.450 — 01:33:39.100 · Speaker 3
But but it's highly important to have the attitude of come to sit.


01:33:39.140 — 01:33:39.460 · Speaker 4
Yes.


01:33:39.500 — 01:33:40.540 · Speaker 3
Learn with us.


01:33:40.580 — 01:33:40.860 · Speaker 4
Yes.


01:33:40.860 — 01:33:46.220 · Speaker 3
Help us craft the message properly so that in post you are not surprised.


01:33:46.260 — 01:33:48.540 · Speaker 1
Well, you're just getting by and right there in the end.


01:33:48.580 — 01:33:49.780 · Speaker 4
Exactly. Wow.


01:33:50.020 — 01:33:58.260 · Speaker 3
And that's what I mean, because they they can read the script a million times. They are not often that creative that they can.


01:33:58.300 — 01:33:59.260 · Speaker 4
See the same.


01:33:59.260 — 01:34:01.180 · Speaker 3
Vision as what the director is.


01:34:01.180 — 01:34:01.740 · Speaker 4
Seeing.


01:34:01.900 — 01:34:19.379 · Speaker 3
So it's highly important to be really close. Have the right attitudes about everything and then move together with the brand. Um, it sounds so stupid. It sounds so obvious. But these are the things that we've found. We've had massive success in. Because we do that.


01:34:19.419 — 01:34:25.060 · Speaker 2
Yeah, well, it's obvious for you because you've, you've you've developed this way, you've developed this process over time.


01:34:25.100 — 01:34:30.700 · Speaker 1
Wisdom comes from experience. You've done you've banged your head enough times to know the right way to do so.


01:34:30.700 — 01:34:46.700 · Speaker 3
So so yeah. And video is incredible. You can get amazing results from very simple, cheap things. And if agencies can embrace the video guy, maybe not not treat him like a.


01:34:46.860 — 01:34:47.139 · Speaker 4
Cute.


01:34:47.139 — 01:34:48.260 · Speaker 1
Video, man.


01:34:48.340 — 01:35:15.380 · Speaker 3
Yeah, it's I mean, they're not operators like a graphic designers or even a motion designer is technically an artist, but they're operators, right? That's that's why we call them designers. Not not artists. Um, a video guy can sometimes be a mixture of the two. He needs to operate and execute, but he's also doing the lighting, the sound.


01:35:15.900 — 01:35:18.940 · Speaker 4
The camerawork. Well, especially with. Yeah, especially with.


01:35:18.940 — 01:35:30.820 · Speaker 1
The smaller sort of pieces of work in the way that we're working now with our production company, where those would typically be multiple individuals. Yeah, not just one one dude. So


01:35:32.580 — 01:35:43.940 · Speaker 1
yeah, I think for us as well, that person also needs to be able to get in people's faces and not not be an uncomfortable human, you know, being able to be client facing.


01:35:44.540 — 01:35:46.180 · Speaker 4
Now that's a whole other direction.


01:35:46.420 — 01:36:10.860 · Speaker 1
Because you're going into, you know, so particularly for the small, the smaller pieces, I'm not talking about big, big productions here, but the smaller pieces where you are filming content with clients on their premises, with their people, that person needs to really be the right person, not only be able to do their work and be technically good, but also just be able to interact with others and.


01:36:11.140 — 01:36:13.420 · Speaker 4
And, and I'll tell you and be a good.


01:36:13.420 — 01:36:14.980 · Speaker 1
Face for your your brand.


01:36:15.020 — 01:36:22.020 · Speaker 3
Around that is that was my job at the agencies was to keep the client away from the production people.


01:36:23.860 — 01:36:24.460 · Speaker 3
That was my.


01:36:24.460 — 01:36:25.700 · Speaker 4
Job. What's the.


01:36:25.700 — 01:36:26.500 · Speaker 1
Title for that.


01:36:26.500 — 01:36:27.860 · Speaker 4
Role? Um.


01:36:28.220 — 01:36:30.780 · Speaker 3
I had some producer title, but.


01:36:30.820 — 01:36:31.660 · Speaker 2
Um, some producer.


01:36:31.700 — 01:36:47.580 · Speaker 3
I ended up Obviously I'm part of the production, but on the shoot day, as the producer, I've done my job. Yes. So what do I do? I stand next to the client. Yes. And distract them from causing absolute carnage on set and.


01:36:47.580 — 01:36:48.980 · Speaker 2
Explain things to them. Yeah.


01:36:49.460 — 01:37:00.740 · Speaker 3
But this is where I learned this process. If we're talking about this by talking to the the marketing managers, being a safe space for them to ask questions without them thinking it's intimidating.


01:37:00.740 — 01:37:01.220 · Speaker 1
Yes.


01:37:01.260 — 01:37:28.140 · Speaker 3
Yeah. And especially on the big sets where you've got hundreds of people running around, they don't know who to talk to. And when they do spot something, um, their natural instinct is to run to the director. And the problem with that always is, is the director is concentrating on something and he is going to snap at anybody interrupting him.

Right. So the safest thing was to talk to me, because I knew when the appropriate time to whisper in the director's ear.


01:37:28.140 — 01:37:29.180 · Speaker 1
Was to make an adjustment.


01:37:29.220 — 01:38:03.700 · Speaker 3
And the director knew if I approached him, he knew who I was. At least another client saw and he could do that. Now there are some amazing video people that have seen this also play out on set and run. Huh? If I'm good with clients, I can just be this guy, right? We work with some amazing freelancers that I can send to a client.

No problem, no problem. Yeah, they're not the cheapest, but they know their skill set, right? And I think that's what we need to train in our videographers these days.


01:38:03.740 — 01:38:04.260 · Speaker 1
Totally.


01:38:04.300 — 01:38:08.220 · Speaker 3
It's it's something we have to nurture in people.


01:38:08.260 — 01:38:08.580 · Speaker 2
Yeah.


01:38:08.620 — 01:38:22.100 · Speaker 3
And this is the issue is video is not so hard when everybody's on board, you know. Um, and are those guys maybe the best DPS? No, but we definitely want to work with the friendly guy.


01:38:22.540 — 01:38:44.940 · Speaker 1
Well, exactly. And I think if they are, um, natural and engaging people to talk to. It also makes the job that you have to do with these strangers much easier. Yeah, because there's nothing worse than, um, being all of a sudden thrust in front of a camera and someone, you know, asking you questions that you do know the answer to, but all of a sudden.


01:38:44.980 — 01:38:45.740 · Speaker 5
You're like, oh.


01:38:45.860 — 01:38:58.100 · Speaker 3
Yeah, I think they're related to, like, if you think about an agency, your creative director was always the client facing creative, right? But you wouldn't necessarily send your DTP guide to a client meeting. No.


01:38:58.500 — 01:39:03.260 · Speaker 1
So that's unless, you know, unless that that person was really good with people.


01:39:03.460 — 01:39:07.580 · Speaker 3
Yeah. So so I think it's the same old problem. It's just, um.


01:39:08.780 — 01:39:12.260 · Speaker 3
Well, I'm biased. I think video is way more complicated than graphic design.


01:39:12.540 — 01:39:25.340 · Speaker 2
But it is. Well, I do, because I think there's a direction element like like if you send your graphic designer to a client meeting, they're not saying, all right, now get over there. Stand there. No, no. Look at this. You know, like a videographer. You like directing the person?


01:39:25.380 — 01:39:25.900 · Speaker 1
Yes.


01:39:25.940 — 01:39:31.260 · Speaker 2
It's like you need a bit of confidence. Like, turn your shoulder. Stop that. Bend down like You know.


01:39:31.380 — 01:39:44.380 · Speaker 1
Yeah. So that and also the, the, um, the ability to, like, sense timing and those kinds of things. You know, after you've shot it and you've got to be thinking about those things while you're shooting. So I do think it is more complicated.


01:39:44.420 — 01:39:59.940 · Speaker 3
I give all the agencies a little tip here. If you've got a trained photographer who's used to, um, talking directly to clients, very comfortable, and that person turns into a videographer, they make the best.


01:39:59.980 — 01:40:00.180 · Speaker 2
Yeah.


01:40:00.220 — 01:40:01.820 · Speaker 3
And photographers make the best.


01:40:02.180 — 01:40:08.300 · Speaker 2
I actually think that's like an inevitable move for photographers. Like most of them do some kind of video.


01:40:08.460 — 01:40:41.900 · Speaker 3
So. So that's just a little tip we've found is most of our solo guys are ex photographers. Very good at talking to a crowd. Come on guys. Yeah, we're doing the photo now. Yeah. They're used to chasing sunlight. They're used to managing people. Yes. They're used to having an assistant. Yes. You know, all those skill sets has actually transferred really, really well into it.

where a traditional film guy is very grumpy, smokes a cigarette at 2:00 in the morning. To get to set, you know. Yeah, it's it's a very different world. So that's my little tip. Um.


01:40:41.900 — 01:40:42.420 · Speaker 1
It's a good one.


01:40:42.420 — 01:40:52.820 · Speaker 3
Thank you. Yeah. How do you and your agency deal with, um, post-production? We talk about, like, um. What, are you.


01:40:52.860 — 01:40:53.860 · Speaker 1
Editing that footage?


01:40:53.940 — 01:41:03.740 · Speaker 3
Yeah, editing the footage. But we spoke about client adverts and things. Yes, but. But how do you handle it? Um, does the the video guy then edits himself?


01:41:03.820 — 01:41:55.700 · Speaker 1
Yes. That's our ideal. So that person has a vision and they've obviously been working with the team in terms of understanding the brand strategy and what our objectives are for this piece of content. So they're they're creating based on on some some planning. And typically we have content calendars.

So they also know how many pieces need to be delivered for each shoot. Um that person will go out. They'll film, they'll come back to studio, do the editing. Um, and then we have a really simple delivery system with our clients where they get the pieces to review and depending on what the content is, in some cases, there's, um, it's, it's more a case of this is what's been built, but there isn't even reverse built in, um, unless there's like some really big glaring error.


01:41:55.740 — 01:42:15.100 · Speaker 2
It's a type of content. If it's if it's like social content, like false content. There typically aren't that many reverts anyway. But I find that the editing, the post-production part is the most difficult part to find people that do it well. I don't know if you agree with that. Like, it all can fall apart.


01:42:15.140 — 01:42:15.780 · Speaker 1
Yes.


01:42:16.140 — 01:42:24.820 · Speaker 2
In the cutting room. Uh, like that's where that's where I struggle the most to to find good editors.


01:42:25.260 — 01:42:42.700 · Speaker 3
Yeah. So I, I think every production company struggles to find good editors. We definitely have in the past. Um, the good ones are very difficult to book. Short notice. So? So I imagine with the agency, your turnarounds are a bit faster than than most.


01:42:42.740 — 01:42:45.180 · Speaker 2
Yeah. So we spend a lot of time with.


01:42:45.220 — 01:42:45.820 · Speaker 1
And I think the.


01:42:45.820 — 01:42:48.140 · Speaker 2
Words and guiding them.


01:42:48.140 — 01:42:54.180 · Speaker 1
There. Yeah, I think the workload sits more on the time spent in the studio than the time spent filming.


01:42:54.460 — 01:42:55.820 · Speaker 3
And studios and.


01:42:55.980 — 01:42:56.620 · Speaker 1
The editing.


01:42:56.740 — 01:43:06.660 · Speaker 2
Work. Yeah. And I find that if the editing is good, the reverts are not there. Yeah, mostly it's all post-production related.


01:43:07.380 — 01:43:09.540 · Speaker 6
Well, that was an interesting discussion.


01:43:09.540 — 01:43:24.220 · Speaker 1
I would love to hear from other creative agencies and production businesses about what they have found. Their workflows look like nowadays in the video space and compared to say, ten years ago. Let us know in the comments.