Episode 46. Interview with Darlene Retief – using Podcasts for internal communications
English (US)
01:00:00.120 — 01:00:14.680 · Speaker 1
Where is these decisions coming from? People act on the meaning they create and not the information they receive. And storytelling inside your organization is equally as important as it is to your customers and outside of your organization.
01:00:17.120 — 01:00:37.120 · Speaker 2
We are all drowning in internal emails, but are we actually communicating? Today we want to discuss the importance and the relevance of an internal podcast. Today we’ve got Darleen Retief with us. She’s a producer at the Schultz Creative, and she is going to tell us a little bit about internal podcasting and where they fit in.
01:00:37.440 — 01:00:38.680 · Speaker 3
Cool. Hi, Rich.
01:00:38.720 — 01:00:42.320 · Speaker 2
Hey, Darlene. What is your counseling store? Perky.
01:00:44.800 — 01:00:45.520 · Speaker 3
Perky?
01:00:46.200 — 01:00:54.960 · Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, from a corporate communication perspective, uh, where do podcasts fit in to a brand’s communication strategy?
01:00:55.000 — 01:00:55.480 · Speaker 3
Cool.
01:00:55.480 — 01:01:55.240 · Speaker 1
So many ways. It can sit between internal and external communication. And we did actually discuss a while back just some of the strategies that brands can use around reaching their customers and their clients and these stakeholders through podcasts. But podcasts can also be used internally quite effectively because at the end of the day, podcasts are what we call a narrative tool, right?
So it’s all about storytelling. And storytelling inside your organization is equally as important as it is to your customers and outside of your organization, because you humans think and understand in stories, we need context and that kind of thing. And so having a tool like this is very effective.
Um, and so podcasts can help to guide your brand voice internally. It can give your leadership a voice. Uh, it can help to grow your organizational story. So all of these are great tools. And, you know, it’s interesting. We we have a theory called the sensemaking theory.
01:01:55.720 — 01:01:56.000 · Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:01:56.040 — 01:02:39.160 · Speaker 1
And basically it’s this idea that what we think people hear the message, they internalize the message, they act on the message, but it actually doesn’t work that way. So people notice something happening, or they hear a message or they hear something, and then they try to interpret it through their own filters, and then they build a story to explain what is going on around them, or the thing that has happened, or this email they’ve received, and then they act based on that story.
Okay. The problem organizations have with internal communication is now everybody is building their own story in their head, and they’re acting based on their own story. And so people act on the meaning they create, not the information they receive.
01:02:39.600 — 01:02:40.120 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:02:40.120 — 01:03:02.200 · Speaker 1
And that’s where podcasts can help, because we can help to form that story for somebody. So they don’t have to build their own story about what’s happening. They can listen to a podcast where it’s explained and the story is retained, and that way you unify everybody. They all have the same interpretation of that piece of information or that thing that has happened, and then we get a unified behavior.
01:03:02.520 — 01:03:09.840 · Speaker 2
So you can you can give some context. You can. You can stop people. Minds running riots and exactly ideally.
01:03:09.840 — 01:03:12.560 · Speaker 1
And minimize speculation.
01:03:12.640 — 01:03:13.280 · Speaker 3
I think which.
01:03:13.280 — 01:03:14.240 · Speaker 1
Is big in organizations.
01:03:14.280 — 01:03:18.080 · Speaker 2
I think can also like humanize the C-suite a little bit as well.
01:03:18.120 — 01:03:18.880 · Speaker 3
Absolutely.
01:03:18.920 — 01:03:21.680 · Speaker 2
Like random instructions coming down from the top.
01:03:21.800 — 01:03:22.080 · Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:03:22.120 — 01:03:25.720 · Speaker 1
Because, I mean, we talk about this all the time on the podcast, right? Like, podcasts.
01:03:25.720 — 01:03:26.160 · Speaker 3
Are.
01:03:26.760 — 01:03:42.640 · Speaker 1
Um, a way to to humanize the person, to introduce them. Um, you know, and so that is a great way to kind of put your CEO in every person’s ear, rather than just that guy sitting in the corner that nobody sees. You know, during the day because he’s always in meetings.
01:03:42.760 — 01:03:51.320 · Speaker 2
And why would it be more effective than something traditional, like internal newsletters or like a, uh, intranet and those sorts.
01:03:51.320 — 01:03:53.160 · Speaker 3
Of things, sort of things. So.
01:03:53.560 — 01:04:38.760 · Speaker 1
Um, we measure all of those are communication channels, right? Different ways of communicating. Um, and we measure those in what we kind of call like a richness level. Like how rich is this communication. And then we look at how immediate is the feedback on that channel. Like are the sender and receiver able to interact.
So this would be a highly rich channel because we’re able to talk back okay. But an email there’s no space. You know it’s pretty one sided multiple queues. So you want to see uh you want to be able to give context. You want to be able to explain. You want to see gestures, facial expressions. So a very rich communication channel allows you to see all those multiple cues.
Whereas again an email is pretty flat.
01:04:39.200 — 01:04:41.560 · Speaker 2
Um, no reply email sent from management.
01:04:41.600 — 01:06:34.200 · Speaker 1
Right? Exactly. Is like please do not reply to the whole company. Uh, we also look at personal focus. So how tailored is the message? And we also look at language variety. So into how much detail can we go in this form of communication. How can we explain things. And so we always say that complex emotional topics needs to you need to use a rich communication channel.
And for more simple operational topics, you can use a lean communication channel. So meeting reminders, policy updates. Fine. Emails are great, but like that lean. Yeah it’s flat. It’s like it doesn’t invite feedback. It’s very informative. It’s very straight. It doesn’t allow for a lot of explaining context, any of that.
So when you want to do things like strategy, explanations, organizational change, and you’re having to get your company through a change of leadership or through a like a merger or whatever it may be, organizational change sensitive announcements, all of those things, you kind of want a richer channel.
Um, and podcasts give you that because podcasts give you a space where you can have tone, nuance, emotion, um, and people feel podcasts, you know, you’re listening to it, but emotion is conveyed in podcasts. And so that’s such a great connection points for for your employees rather than to just literally read an email.
It’s efficient. Sure, but a 50% of them don’t read it. The other 50% read it and forget about it. And then you’ve got like 10% that read it and go and gossip about it, or complain about it, or misinterpreted and build their own stories and, you know, all those things. And so, um, podcasts are great for complex ideas.
Uh, change communication, leadership messaging. Email delivers information. Podcasts deliver meaning.
01:06:34.240 — 01:06:44.920 · Speaker 2
Yeah, I guess any podcast would be good for any kind of internal messaging that isn’t open to interpretation. Really? Like you have a meeting at five doesn’t really have too many questions.
01:06:44.960 — 01:06:45.920 · Speaker 1
Exactly.
01:06:46.080 — 01:06:51.280 · Speaker 2
Um, yeah. So how would a brand use a podcast for internal communication?
01:06:51.920 — 01:06:54.440 · Speaker 4
So I think I think podcasts are underutilized.
01:06:54.480 — 01:07:01.760 · Speaker 1
I mean, we were just talking earlier off camera about how how little we hear about this thing. And, and I mean, I get it’s a big commitment.
01:07:01.800 — 01:07:03.240 · Speaker 2
Would be a big for a big brand.
01:07:03.240 — 01:07:03.800 · Speaker 4
Or for a big.
01:07:03.960 — 01:07:06.280 · Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. For a big brand, I mean.
01:07:06.800 — 01:07:09.360 · Speaker 4
So I really like it. I really like.
01:07:09.360 — 01:08:02.720 · Speaker 1
The idea of town hall. You know, the, the concept of kind of having bringing the whole organization together. And I think in a smaller company that can work really well, especially if you take steps to make sure it’s very interactive and there is a two way communication going on. But when you’re talking about large companies, you can’t put everyone in the room.
You can’t even get everyone’s schedules to work to go in the room together. You know, so you’re seeing companies with lots of departments that often have silos. So we don’t know what’s happening in other departments. Um, everything is like very top down. So CEO gives a message and then it goes down in an email, like you said, the company wide email.
And so, um, podcasts are so effective for CEO updates, um, strategy breakdowns because this is the thing C-suite is in charge of strategy, but every single person in the company ideally needs to buy into that strategy.
01:08:02.760 — 01:08:03.680 · Speaker 2
They have to be acting it out.
01:08:03.720 — 01:09:56.280 · Speaker 1
They have to be acting it out. But if they don’t know what it is or they they didn’t read it or they didn’t go to the seminar, they explained it to them, which is all just talking to them. Yeah, I love the idea of a podcast where you can come and sit down and go. It’s not just the PowerPoint of like, this is our strategy and these are our objectives based on the strategy.
It’s like, how did we get to it? What like breaking it down and and bringing context again where is these decisions coming from. Um, and then employee storytelling, which is another great space because that’s shapes culture, right? Is having a space where you if you have a company podcast that’s internal, you can bring certain employees every time and you can interview them and you can hear their stories and you can hear kind of their wins.
And it builds the sense of camaraderie within a company. It’s scaled leadership, communication. Um, and also something that I really love, especially given our whole work from home policies and stuff at the moment, is it builds connection across locations so you can be working from home 100% of the time, or 80% of the time, and kind of not being in the office and missing.
But there’s this central podcast that everybody’s tuned into that keeps you connected, you know, to the company connected to what’s going on. Um, and we know that you where communication is so important. So podcasts provide that space for feedback. People feel like they have a voice. It’s not just a broadcast, but they can come in on it.
They can interact on it. It creates talking points around the watercooler or whatever the version of watercooler is. And in offices this day, um, these days, uh, and an internal podcast turns leadership, communication, leadership, communication into a conversation rather than just a memo. Right.
Essentially.
01:09:56.320 — 01:10:47.880 · Speaker 2
Okay, that that point you made about town halls really resonated with me. We have townhall at brand Candy, and it works really, really well because it’s Jan and I are talking to the business, giving them context. Um, we found exactly that. Like, I hadn’t thought of it before, but exactly that. If we just send out a memo.
Everyone has questions. Everyone talks. If we explain the thinking behind it, the background to that memo, why we’ve come up with this decision, we’ve actually made a conscious decision to make everything a lot more transparent. Our brain candy. And it works with Jan and are talking to the team. But I fully understand that that is impossible for a giant company.
Yeah, also very costly to have all your employees that that are sort of like selling their time to be all in a room together is it’s a.
01:10:48.240 — 01:10:50.280 · Speaker 1
It’s basically organizing a conference. Right?
01:10:50.320 — 01:10:51.360 · Speaker 2
It’s organizing a company.
01:10:51.480 — 01:10:54.160 · Speaker 1
It’s a whole event just to try and communicate.
01:10:54.200 — 01:11:07.280 · Speaker 2
When we originally started talking about this, I was like, well, it sounds quite expensive exercise to just have an internal podcast, but actually not when you frame it like that. And so how else could it help with culture.
01:11:07.480 — 01:11:17.600 · Speaker 1
Mhm. Okay. So culture we define in the communication space as the thing that gets talked about consistently.
01:11:17.720 — 01:11:18.080 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:11:18.120 — 01:13:00.200 · Speaker 1
So if you walk into a company what is the language that everybody’s going to be using. What is the way people are approaching situations. What are they saying to you. That is what makes up culture. Um, and when you have a podcast that people are listening to, you are providing that language. So you are automatically in that space unifying people.
You’re bringing them all around the same table and you’re you’re so you’re creating a sense of engagement that comes from feeling included. I’m part of what this company is doing. I’m not just sitting in my little cubicle doing my thing for my direct boss. And the CEO is this big guy upstairs that I just hear about and never see.
But now I can have him in my ear. I can hear his jokes, albeit lame jokes, whatever they may be. You know, like he becomes human. So it humanizes leadership and it highlights employee voices. And I think that’s that’s one of my favorite things. Especially for big companies that can get so siloed, is you can work for a company and not know employees from across the corridor, like you’re not not know who they are or these stories.
And so podcasts internally are creates an opportunity to introduce different people and to highlight these stories and highlight their wins. And then it creates the sense of like, wow. Like we’ve had a really great month this month, but not because the sales quota got reached, although that’s important, but because this person had this win and they win is my win, you know?
And I get excited when I have a win because now we’re all working together towards something. And then most importantly, we can reinforce reinforce values through stories.
01:13:00.400 — 01:13:00.760 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:13:00.800 — 01:13:07.440 · Speaker 1
And I mean company values. You’ve all been to those companies and then the values are printed.
01:13:07.440 — 01:13:08.840 · Speaker 5
On the walls? Yes.
01:13:09.280 — 01:13:32.880 · Speaker 1
And they’re all exactly right. And all. All the new employees have to sit through, like a seminar on their first day at like. And these are our values and this is what we aim to achieve. And then you get like a little mug with it printed on somewhere in the year. And like, all the corporate things, um, but values are, are, are there to create certain behavior consistently.
01:13:32.960 — 01:13:35.440 · Speaker 2
Yeah. That’s not something you can say. It’s something you’ve got to actually.
01:13:35.520 — 01:13:35.680 · Speaker 5
You’ve.
01:13:35.680 — 01:14:29.960 · Speaker 1
Got to do and you’ve got to live. And a podcast I think can embody those values. Like I think of, of, of High Ho. Like just when we talk about how we value our clients and how we we care about brands outcomes, and we want to see them succeed and how we care about how we treat people and say like, those are things we’ve talked about in the podcast, and hopefully our viewers have kind of felt that themselves just through listening to us.
So you you have a way to live out the values. So. So in essence, podcasts don’t just communicate the culture, they create it. They create the shared language, the shared experience for people to go and like, oh, have you listened to the podcast this month? You know, like they say this or this person was on and and it and it creates those conversations and brings people into the same place.
01:14:30.000 — 01:14:40.720 · Speaker 2
Yeah. My my value is just in case anyone was wondering as to, um, uh, through aligning your verticals, we want to highlight, uh, core competencies.
01:14:44.040 — 01:14:47.120 · Speaker 5
I think I think you need I think you need a podcast to.
01:14:47.160 — 01:14:47.920 · Speaker 1
Explain.
01:14:47.920 — 01:14:48.400 · Speaker 5
That.
01:14:49.040 — 01:14:50.320 · Speaker 2
I don’t know what it means.
01:14:51.240 — 01:14:53.320 · Speaker 5
It isn’t necessarily on someone’s website.
01:14:53.600 — 01:14:54.840 · Speaker 1
That is hilarious.
01:14:54.880 — 01:14:57.800 · Speaker 2
And what about building trust internally?
01:14:57.840 — 01:14:59.160 · Speaker 5
Oh, trust.
01:14:59.200 — 01:15:03.360 · Speaker 1
Right. That thing that takes forever to build in an instant to lose, right?
01:15:03.400 — 01:15:03.960 · Speaker 5
Yeah.
01:15:04.160 — 01:15:24.560 · Speaker 1
Uh, we talk about trust all the time in communication and PR. Uh, and I think sometimes we forget that building trust internally is as important as getting your customers to trust you. And we’ve spoken a lot about how podcasts can build trust with your customers because you’re creating social capital.
But at the end of the day,
01:15:25.960 — 01:15:37.920 · Speaker 1
if your CEO or your C-suite is going to make a decision, that’s a little bit dicey, but they’re taking a risk. They’re putting their necks out there. You want an organization that’s going to rally behind them.
01:15:37.920 — 01:15:39.360 · Speaker 2
That’s a good point, right?
01:15:39.400 — 01:16:02.960 · Speaker 1
You want. You want a company who gives their leadership the benefit of the doubt. And that only happens with trust. That’s that’s how you create it. And so trust is built through consistency transparency and authenticity. Those are like some of the key figures that we all the key pillars that we look at when it comes to building trust.
And that again, I feel like.
01:16:02.960 — 01:16:03.920 · Speaker 5
I’m just punting.
01:16:03.920 — 01:16:04.400 · Speaker 1
Podcasts.
01:16:04.400 — 01:16:05.800 · Speaker 5
But that’s the point, right?
01:16:05.920 — 01:16:25.319 · Speaker 2
Like, well, it’s actually all the same reasons we say a brand should have a podcast are the same reason you should have a it’s just it’s another version of a brand podcast podcast for your brand. But internally. Yeah. Um, I’m going to just. Last question here is
01:16:26.720 — 01:16:38.520 · Speaker 2
like, will employees actually listen to a podcast? I mean, it’s one thing like all these reasons for having it are great, but but and we even said earlier that, you know, you send an email, they don’t read it and stuff like why would they.
01:16:38.560 — 01:16:39.720 · Speaker 5
Watch it then too?
01:16:39.800 — 01:16:40.840 · Speaker 1
It’s a it’s a valid.
01:16:40.840 — 01:16:41.440 · Speaker 5
Question.
01:16:41.440 — 01:16:49.560 · Speaker 1
Right? Um, and sure, you always will have people that won’t listen. Um, but
01:16:50.680 — 01:17:30.360 · Speaker 1
all the principles that, that we talk about when it comes to podcasts still apply. So the fact that you are entertaining, you’re informing, um, you’re of interest to people. So what makes podcasts great is because it naturally fits into the flow of people’s lives. They’re already used to listening to a podcast while they’re commuting, while they’re walking, exercising, doing their chores.
Um, and so I would argue that it’s easier for somebody to put on a podcast on their way to work and get a quick update of what’s going on in the company, than it is for them to sit down and read a two page email that’s now a member.
01:17:30.840 — 01:17:31.160 · Speaker 2
While they’re.
01:17:31.160 — 01:17:31.880 · Speaker 5
Working.
01:17:31.920 — 01:17:35.320 · Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. If you can multitask like that. I that’s not.
01:17:35.320 — 01:17:36.240 · Speaker 5
My I’m.
01:17:36.240 — 01:17:37.480 · Speaker 2
Genuinely saying to something.
01:17:37.760 — 01:17:38.920 · Speaker 5
Um, yeah.
01:17:38.960 — 01:17:40.480 · Speaker 1
So so I.
01:17:40.680 — 01:17:41.000 · Speaker 5
Feel like.
01:17:41.000 — 01:17:42.600 · Speaker 1
It’s a little bit more convenient and I think.
01:17:42.600 — 01:17:42.840 · Speaker 5
It.
01:17:42.840 — 01:18:10.360 · Speaker 1
Speaks a little bit more to where people are at. Like, we, we do live in a space now where we prefer to consume video or audio over having to read. That is just the bottom line. That’s the world we live in. And so now you’re meeting your employees at a place where they’re at, at a place where they’re comfortable consuming things.
Um, also also just to remember, like consistency doesn’t mean every single week. Consistency just means being reliable about when it’s happening.
01:18:10.480 — 01:18:12.760 · Speaker 2
Yes, we talked about that in a prior episode.
01:18:12.800 — 01:18:14.480 · Speaker 5
Yeah. So for.
01:18:14.520 — 01:18:15.560 · Speaker 1
A company.
01:18:15.600 — 01:18:15.920 · Speaker 5
I mean.
01:18:15.960 — 01:18:32.760 · Speaker 1
How many updates do you really have? You know, but I mean, there’s a lot I can get so excited about how you can build an episode and have a segment where you’re talking to an employee and a segment about looking to the future, and then you have your CEO. So you can you can curate something that people want to listen to that they’re interested in.
01:18:32.800 — 01:18:35.920 · Speaker 2
I like the employee thing. It’s like who’s who’s going.
01:18:35.920 — 01:18:36.680 · Speaker 5
To be, who’s it.
01:18:36.680 — 01:18:45.440 · Speaker 1
Going to be and what’s the story? And you can you can drive some kind of on the floor activations around that. Or you could do birthday month, you know, there’s so much you can.
01:18:45.440 — 01:18:45.760 · Speaker 5
Do.
01:18:46.040 — 01:18:53.240 · Speaker 1
And it’s very exciting. I really think it’s a very exciting space. But you can own you can produce once a month, you know.
01:18:53.280 — 01:18:54.040 · Speaker 5
So that’s not.
01:18:54.040 — 01:19:03.960 · Speaker 1
So heavy on employees. You’re not asking them to consume an hour a week or whatever. It’s once a month. It can be five minutes, it can be 15 minutes. You’re creating a culture.
01:19:03.960 — 01:19:04.840 · Speaker 5
And.
01:19:05.160 — 01:21:01.320 · Speaker 1
You’re creating FOMO culture. That’s that’s the base strategy is like you get to work. And the podcast has been out for 24 hours and everybody’s talking about it, but you haven’t listened to it and you’re starting to feel a little bit out. That’s the power of culture in a company, and it takes a while to build that.
Um, but regular, um, episodes are so important and that helps to build that. And then of course, like with any podcast, track the engagement, see who’s see who’s logging on, see who’s not. Get your middle managers to encourage their teams to listen to it. Um, adjust according to accordingly. So if you see some things doing better than others, you do all those things.
Um, at the end of the day, you want impact over perfect reach. So you maybe don’t want you can’t get every single person in the whole, you know, 2000 members strong company to listen. You never will. But you can get even a partial listenership can be enough to shift just the understanding of where we’re going.
Strategy. Um, and and just to loop back to something we said earlier is you’re building that trust now so that you have it for when you need it later. One of the most, um, tricky things for leaders is to is to help organizations move through a time of change. Yes, but having a platform like this that’s already established in your company will only set you up for the best place to be in when that change has to happen.
When there’s a PR crisis, when you have to have an awkward memo. Essentially, you’ve now built the space of trust. You’ve built the space of authenticity. And people know with audio and video, if there’s inauthenticity, it’s very easy. You know, like ChatGPT or your base communication officer in the company can craft an email until it sounds great, but you cannot fake.
Yeah, like a conversation on a podcast.
01:21:01.320 — 01:21:13.600 · Speaker 2
I think the change management things are really good point there, because that is the main thing that gets people spiraling further to company. Like, why is this happening? Who’s doing that? Where’s Bob gone? You know, like, exactly.
01:21:13.640 — 01:21:47.200 · Speaker 1
And, like, rumors of layoffs and all the things. And, um, even in change theory, which is, you know, part of the communication, we talk about how you have very specific messages that you have to communicate before the change, during the change and after the change, and you take your employees through that.
That’s like change management 101. So this is just the channel or platform that you have to help to transition that to help to share those messages. But if you don’t already have it, it’s really hard to start it in the middle of of the change. And so yeah, I think that’s.
01:21:47.200 — 01:21:54.200 · Speaker 2
Why I have to say I was quite skeptical at the beginning. But the more we talked I was like, ah, yeah.
01:21:54.280 — 01:21:55.320 · Speaker 1
Sufficiently convinced.
01:21:55.360 — 01:22:09.720 · Speaker 2
You. Yeah. No, you really have it. It makes just such perfect sense. What do you guys think? Do you think an internal podcast is is worth it? I am a convert and will probably be starting to put one together. See you guys next week.
