Episode 57 Interview with Russel Wasserfall about his podcast_A Table in the Corner.txt
English (US)
01:00:00.600 — 01:00:06.840 · Speaker 1
Dave from plumbing couldn’t sit down in someone’s restaurant and start chatting to them about being a chef.
01:00:07.000 — 01:00:13.480 · Speaker 2
Like, there’s these tropes that you feel like if you don’t subscribe to these things, you aren’t a real podcast.
01:00:15.960 — 01:00:41.040 · Speaker 2
Welcome to the podcast cave. I am joined today by Russell Boswell. He’s joining us all the way from the cold and windy Cape Town. Russell has over three decades of experience across the food and media space, and his podcast, A table in the corner, is doing extremely well, connecting listeners with restaurateurs and chefs.
Thank you so much for joining us today, Russell.
01:00:41.080 — 01:00:41.520 · Speaker 1
Good to be.
01:00:41.520 — 01:00:44.240 · Speaker 2
Here. Appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule.
01:00:44.280 — 01:00:45.080 · Speaker 1
Thank you.
01:00:45.360 — 01:00:50.400 · Speaker 2
I want to find out how how podcasting came to be in your world.
01:00:50.440 — 01:00:56.120 · Speaker 1
Sure. All of this is a long story. Maybe you’ll have to ask three questions and I’ll just talk for an hour.
01:00:56.640 — 01:00:57.080 · Speaker 2
So
01:00:58.360 — 01:00:59.200 · Speaker 2
it’s all so fun.
01:00:59.280 — 01:01:15.140 · Speaker 1
There was a time in my life where I was traveling great distances. We lived for a while in Prince Albert and I’m now in Cape Town, but we lived in Prince Albert for a while, and also in darling. Um, and when I was driving, I just started listening to podcasts, you know, and,
01:01:16.540 — 01:01:55.139 · Speaker 1
I mean, it wasn’t that I wanted to do a podcast. I actually started podcasting because I wanted to talk to people in the food industry. Okay. And I wanted some way to connect with people in the food industry, because I’ve been out of it for a while. Um, I used to be a commercial food photographer, and I’ve run a couple of restaurants in my life, and as fate would have it, and a flying accident in 2011 kind of pushed that out of my life.
Okay. And I just wanted some way to get back to talk to people. And, and, and I’ve always sort of written for magazines about food, photograph, food, all that sort of thing. And, and so
01:01:56.260 — 01:02:04.830 · Speaker 1
I was listening to, um, films to be buried with by Brick Goldstein. Okay. The dude from Ted Lasso.
01:02:04.870 — 01:02:05.590 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:02:05.910 — 01:02:10.709 · Speaker 1
That was my favorite. And also another one called Behind the Bastards, which is like, this kind of
01:02:12.510 — 01:02:18.230 · Speaker 1
looks at the worst people in history and tells the history. And I find it absolutely hilarious. American podcast.
01:02:18.270 — 01:02:19.030 · Speaker 2
Oh, fascinating.
01:02:19.070 — 01:02:33.630 · Speaker 1
And I just thought, well, maybe I could do this. You know, maybe this is how to talk to people and stay connected with with the world of, of kind of restaurants and food.
01:02:33.670 — 01:02:42.870 · Speaker 2
And did you have any sort of broadcast experience or, I mean, any experiencing, sort of being in front of or behind the camera?
01:02:42.990 — 01:02:46.150 · Speaker 1
I once held a microphone at school.
01:02:46.150 — 01:02:50.990 · Speaker 2
And you started with audio only. So the video came later or did you do the.
01:02:50.990 — 01:02:53.150 · Speaker 1
Video then wasn’t part of a job?
01:02:53.190 — 01:02:53.790 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:02:54.470 — 01:03:40.969 · Speaker 1
I was consulting to a company that supplies restaurants with with, um, kind of goods, ingredients and that sort of thing, and I didn’t I disagreed with their approach to how they were trying to market themselves because they just had this, like Instagram and Facebook account, and they’re just putting pictures of their chicken and the eggs and stuff like that.
I was like, dude, you’ve been supplying the top chefs in the city for so long. Yes. Um, why don’t you, like, give back and tell these stories? Why don’t we do a podcast, you know, and and and and the guy was like, no. So. Okay. And I didn’t know that you could do this relatively inexpensively. Right? Um, so
01:03:42.210 — 01:04:23.060 · Speaker 1
the idea just just sat with me, and as I said, I’d been listening to all these podcasts, I thought, podcast podcasts, how do we do this? How do we fund this? And then I started to realize that a friend of mine who’s a sculptor, his son had a sound studio, and he said, you know, you should talk to Benjie. And I spoke to Benjie and he said, well, all you need is this and this.
I need one of these microphones. And so I was like, okay, well, what are those microphones? It’s like 1600 bucks and this little desk thing is four grand. Okay. I can cobble something together, you know. And then I got Benjie to show me how it all worked. Um. And he taught me how to edit on DaVinci Pro.
01:04:23.100 — 01:04:23.660 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:04:23.700 — 01:04:53.900 · Speaker 1
Yes, on DaVinci, which was like this free software available. And I just he edited the first two for me and showed me what to do. And and like, I was like, okay, that was it. Oh, okay. You know, I’ll get there. And then I bought a better microphone. And no, like, I used to carry this big bag around with me with this.
Right. You know, with the with a zoom pod trek and all the leads that plugged into it and set up a microphone and used to tell people, you have to sit this far from the microphone and talk, you know.
01:04:55.220 — 01:04:57.920 · Speaker 1
Exactly. There you go. I had to do that. And.
01:05:01.000 — 01:05:11.160 · Speaker 1
As I got more confident at using the gear and then editing it afterwards, I start to realize as well that, like you, I bought little. Um.
01:05:12.800 — 01:05:22.440 · Speaker 1
Oh, what are they called? Road. Road mes? Yes, with the LED mic and plug them in. So I became more and more and more portable, you know.
01:05:22.480 — 01:05:23.720 · Speaker 2
And probably simpler.
01:05:23.720 — 01:05:40.200 · Speaker 1
And I wondered. I don’t know, no, I don’t need much. Not at all. And now my rig is tiny. It’s like a mini set of, like, two little, little microphones. Yes. That big and, um, a phone.
01:05:40.960 — 01:05:41.400 · Speaker 2
Amazing.
01:05:41.440 — 01:06:32.210 · Speaker 1
You know, and I’ve been through so, so fits in a little bag that slings over my shoulder. And I can go anywhere and and work with it. You know, um, as I say, I used to carry this big sack with big microphones and stands and heavy bases, and I had insulated the base underwear underneath so there was no vibration.
And and you realize. But there’s something about that, because when I was a photographer, it’s the same thing. People were like, oh, you got to buy this camera, get this, get this lens. And five of those lenses, three of these stands, nine of those lights. And and actually, all you just need is a camera, an idea and a lens.
Yes. And it took me a long time to return to that principle. You know, where I literally have a little sling bag over my shoulder with a couple of things, and I go and speak to.
01:06:32.250 — 01:06:32.490 · Speaker 2
That.
01:06:32.530 — 01:06:37.610 · Speaker 1
Go, you know, Luke Del Roberts or Liam Tomlin or whoever it is, you know.
01:06:37.970 — 01:06:47.130 · Speaker 2
And tell me about your choice to go to their premises. So you are recording in their place of work, whether it’s a chef or a
01:06:48.530 — 01:06:53.210 · Speaker 2
distributor, you’re not bringing them into a space. You go there.
01:06:54.510 — 01:07:36.709 · Speaker 1
Yeah. So first of all, I didn’t have a studio. Right. So where was I going to invite them, you know. And I was living in this tiny little house in Rustenburg. So where are you going to go, bro? Right. Um, and once or twice I needed to hire a studio, and there was nothing really good. And a couple of people said, oh, we, you know, in these workspaces, these we work or these shared workspaces.
They said, oh, we’ve got a podcast studio and you go in there and it’s not in any way isolated. You know, the person coughing over the computer next door comes through and the microphones. You know. Um, so so
01:07:37.790 — 01:08:11.480 · Speaker 1
I have used a studio once or twice, but I think I’ve done like 190 episodes now and all, but about four of them have been in people’s premises. And the reason is that, first of all, I didn’t have a studio, but also I wanted to get a sense of the place, and I wanted the person I was speaking to to be as comfortable as possible.
So that’s worked fairly well, mostly except for like really, really busy ships who their staff can’t help but interrupt them in the middle of a conversation, you know?
01:08:11.840 — 01:08:12.440 · Speaker 2
Yes.
01:08:12.480 — 01:08:18.800 · Speaker 1
Um, I don’t know, because the duck escaped or the, you know, the claws need to be.
01:08:19.400 — 01:08:20.040 · Speaker 2
There, right.
01:08:20.040 — 01:08:20.880 · Speaker 1
There, you know?
01:08:20.960 — 01:08:27.800 · Speaker 2
Yeah. They’re there and you can see them. It’s impossible to pretend they’re not there even even though they’re busy with you.
01:08:27.840 — 01:09:05.620 · Speaker 1
Exactly. It’s that. But also to get a sense. And also, I just want to be there, you know, I want to go and and and and it was very good for me because I spent a lot of time when I was working for like, taste magazine and valet and all these kind of food, food in the home. When I was shooting and writing for those people I spent a lot of.
So it’s a comfortable environment for me, you know? So then I just and also at first the guests were easy to access because there were all people that I knew. There were all mates or people I’d worked with, or people I’d done a book with or, you know, so it was it. And and as the show started to, to kind of find
01:09:07.020 — 01:09:46.820 · Speaker 1
its audience with the chefs and the young cooks and the people who follow it because they knew it, it was much easier to get the access right. And for many, like a record on a Monday, mainly because that’s when most chefs have off. Okay. But despite that, it’s also just much easier for the chefs, for the cooks, for the working people in the food industry to go somewhere that they go all the time anyway, instead of having to drag them out, put them in a studio, make them all uncomfortable.
No. It’s upstairs. No second? No. Second floor. You know what I mean? You don’t have to do that with them.
01:09:46.860 — 01:10:11.550 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, also, I mean, just being recorded is an uncomfortable scenario for most of us. If there’s a camera over and above that, even worse. So how do you how do you break that down? So first of all, the situation is clearly important. And then what is your what interview techniques do you employ to get them to open up?
01:10:14.870 — 01:10:20.950 · Speaker 1
You may have noticed it in the short time we’ve been engaging here that I’m a bit chatty.
01:10:21.590 — 01:10:22.710 · Speaker 2
So it’s easy.
01:10:24.830 — 01:10:34.150 · Speaker 1
You know, it just you just start talking. Yes. And ignore them when they say, oh, no, I don’t know what to say. It’s fine, it’s fine. Yeah.
01:10:34.390 — 01:10:35.070 · Speaker 2
Just keep going.
01:10:35.110 — 01:10:35.550 · Speaker 1
Relaxed.
01:10:35.590 — 01:10:36.150 · Speaker 2
We’re chatting.
01:10:36.190 — 01:10:49.830 · Speaker 1
It just, you know, there’s a lot here and a lot that that I think is important. Like Dave from plumbing couldn’t sit down in someone’s restaurant and start chatting to them about being a chef.
01:10:49.870 — 01:10:50.470 · Speaker 2
Sure.
01:10:52.810 — 01:10:59.010 · Speaker 1
I think it’s very important that that you know what you’re talking about. That you have some like.
01:11:01.130 — 01:11:37.490 · Speaker 1
Not kudos, but I’m not suggesting I have kudos. I’m just saying that you kind of need to know the territory. You know, and I’m fortunate enough to have have worked broadly across the restaurant food sphere. I’ve written about it, I’ve photographed, and I’ve also run restaurants. Okay. So. So as I speak, chef, a bit, you know, sometimes it gets lost in translation, but I speak a little bit of chef and, and so it’s just you just start the conversation and put them at ease and just quietly reach over and push record, you know.
01:11:37.530 — 01:11:38.010 · Speaker 2
Brilliant.
01:11:38.050 — 01:12:12.500 · Speaker 1
And when you’re in flow. Yes. Um, I also find it difficult to do this or I used to. Now I just do the intro and I just said, you know, I’m just going to do a little intro here, and then I just draw the person in after that. But, but, but a lot of the time, I will have already been speaking to the person for ten minutes before I say, okay, listen, let’s get into this, let’s do an intro, and then I record the intro and then we go.
But there’s been there’s been 5 or 10 minutes of, of, of natter going on just to get the person kind of uh, you know, okay.
01:12:12.500 — 01:12:12.900 · Speaker 2
This is.
01:12:12.900 — 01:12:40.620 · Speaker 1
Comfortable and, and it helps as well that there isn’t that thing, you know, just far away from your mouth. It’s, it’s like it because that’s intimidating for people, you know. And as soon as I moved away from the microphone on a stand with a lead running into a little mini desk, um, it, it became a lot easier to to chat to people and get really good content out of them, you know?
01:12:40.620 — 01:13:15.720 · Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that’s really good advice and, and super insightful. You know, a lot of people fall into this trap almost of feeling like if they don’t have certain things around them, they’re not a real podcast. We actually spoke about this on an episode many moons ago where, you know, it’s like almost like there’s these tropes that you feel like if you don’t subscribe to these things, you aren’t a real podcast, but actually what you’re doing is a terrible disservice to your audience because you’re not actually getting real content out of people if there’s all these barriers between you and their information.
01:13:17.480 — 01:14:19.530 · Speaker 1
So that’s so that’s exactly it. And it goes back to to what I mentioned about people who come to photography, you know, like if you catch an old hand, they’re like, oh, and people say, what camera do you have and which lens? It’s a, it’s a, it’s just it’s a toolbox. You know, it’s like whatever’s in it will make an image out of it.
And it’s the same thing. Whatever we’ve got will make us a show out of, because it isn’t a it isn’t about the Equipment. It’s about the engagement and the creative kind of impulses also. I mean, I do a lot of preparation, um, a lot of reading and and research before I talk to someone, especially now, a lot of people, as I say, in the beginning, I knew people I’d worked with them I’d, you know, I’d run restaurants with them, whatever the case may be now, there’s a lot more people that I haven’t encountered before.
So I do a thorough, thorough research, but it’s also sets your guest at ease. If they
01:14:20.570 — 01:14:49.590 · Speaker 1
take some a while sometimes, but if they click that, you’ve given them the respect to do the research and to actually understand and come to them with the desire to, to share, to learn something from them, but also to to draw something from them that you want to share with your audience. Then then they’re like, oh yeah, yeah.
Cool. Okay. And again, if they hear you doing that with their mate down the road, when you phone and say, said, listen, would you like to be on the show? They’re like, yeah, sure.
01:14:49.870 — 01:15:01.310 · Speaker 2
Yeah. And do you go into the conversation with a bit of an inkling of where you wanted to go? What maybe little nugget you want to uncover or or is it more organic than that?
01:15:02.870 — 01:15:04.870 · Speaker 1
So, um,
01:15:06.470 — 01:16:05.280 · Speaker 1
so Brett Goldstein on phones to be buried with had 12 questions that he asked. And, you know, and I spent like, I probably spent three months working on the questions before I did my first show. And I like, oh, no, no, what did he say? Oh, I tried this and I wrote them and then I tried. Oh. And then I, you know, you’re in the shower and you think, oh, I know what I can ask.
And then cross that one off. So I fiddled back and forth with this list of 12 questions. You know, I threw the heat away after the third episode because it was just quick, you know, and I realized that we were just having a conversation. So I do go with an agenda. Um, one of my favorite shows just recently was with a guy called Dennis Miller who runs these tours in Cape Town called Unexplored Cape Town.
And he takes people away from the, like, tourist trap,
01:16:06.800 — 01:17:22.939 · Speaker 1
sort of not tourist trap, but away from the beaten tourist path. Yes, away from the V&A waterfront. And he takes them into the kitchens of the various cultural cuisines, like intercourse into Somali, into Ethiopian and into these kitchens. And very often those places are not at street level because the rentals are expensive.
So. So you’ll find, like this amazing Somali restaurant on the second floor, like in what was an office. Right. You know, so it’s you’re not going to find that very easily. You have. Anyway, sorry, but the point of the matter is that I had an agenda. I wanted to find out where is the tourist dollar that pours into Cape Town for the food scene going?
And does it get to the lady who sells samosas in the workshop or the little bakery in Rose Street, you know? Um, and so that was my and I just guided the conversation to that. You know, um, so sorry. Again, I’m just meandering here in the, in the chat, so I, I always arrive and it’s something about that respect thing that you’re showing to your guests.
I always arrived with a sheet of questions.
01:17:22.980 — 01:17:23.699 · Speaker 2
Right?
01:17:23.860 — 01:17:25.620 · Speaker 1
Whether we get to all of them.
01:17:26.060 — 01:17:26.819 · Speaker 2
It doesn’t matter.
01:17:28.140 — 01:17:39.860 · Speaker 1
Most often not. You know, it’s just that it’s there. And if I get lost or if we get lost in the conversation, I’ve got structure to come back to. But, um, it
01:17:41.020 — 01:17:58.600 · Speaker 1
so it’s the, it’s that, you know, I’ve done my research. Here it is. I respect you, you know, here the things and this is what I want to get out of it. So I’ve really thought about this conversation with you. Here’s what I’m going to get out of it. But if we if we like, dive down a rabbit hole that I’m interested in, we’ll just go there, you know?
Yeah.
01:17:58.840 — 01:18:12.960 · Speaker 2
Because you can’t have you can’t, you know, you can have your prepared questions, but you can’t actually have a clear view of where it’s going to go until you’re actually there. And potentially, they think they have to tell you are far more interesting than the questions you planned.
01:18:14.560 — 01:18:17.640 · Speaker 1
And also, you have to kind of
01:18:19.160 — 01:18:43.410 · Speaker 1
accept that as much as you think you know about a particular topic. I mean, you know, my areas food, okay. But but as much as you think, you know, you know about airplanes, someone’s going to tell you something that you just, just have no idea about because they’re the expert. Yes. You know, um, and and also, like, you’re not the star of the show.
01:18:44.610 — 01:19:08.050 · Speaker 1
People watch my show because they see, like, yes, the Liam Tomlins and Luke Roberts. You know, the big names in food, the David Higgs, the Natasha Sedaris. There are those people. But there’s also like there was a the manager of a restaurant from Greenpoint who makes Beau
01:19:09.370 — 01:19:15.130 · Speaker 1
as like a side gig, and she makes about 50 to 60 a week.
01:19:16.650 — 01:19:30.610 · Speaker 1
But her process is interesting. And the fact that she’s making this in this tiny home kitchen on her off days. People are fascinated by that. But she’s the interesting thing. I’m not the interesting person. Yeah. You know.
01:19:30.650 — 01:19:35.610 · Speaker 2
Our job is actually to pull that out, not to force our questions. Yeah.
01:19:35.930 — 01:19:52.510 · Speaker 1
Exactly. So, you know, we’re we’re the journalists. We’re the conduit who are getting that person who’s really interesting and and got a lot to say and a lot to offer. I mean, that’s what I say as well, is that I’m building an archive of the voices of the food industry.
01:19:52.550 — 01:19:52.790 · Speaker 2
Oh, I.
01:19:52.790 — 01:19:53.670 · Speaker 1
Love that, you know.
01:19:54.950 — 01:19:59.550 · Speaker 1
Yeah. Um, because people learn. Yeah.
01:19:59.830 — 01:20:27.510 · Speaker 2
So on, on that point of building this archive of of brains out there, how do you decide who to interview? Do you take any sort of, um, uh, maybe not requests, but do you get any feedback from audience and listeners of people that they want you to interview, or is this purely a, um, I’m interested as Russell.
I want to go and find out more from this person. How do you pick who you’re going to talk to?
01:20:28.710 — 01:20:31.670 · Speaker 1
It’s interesting that you go there, Janet, because, um.
01:20:34.110 — 01:21:28.080 · Speaker 1
It was really completely my own fancy. You know, basically, I started with people that I knew would actually talk to me, you know, just to get rolling. Yes. Um, and then it became something of a bonfire because I just I actually just had to, like, I had to start to, to be more strategic because I was talking to anyone.
Like, I’d be talking to someone. They’d say, oh, yeah, and there’s this guy, they’ve had this cheese. That’s incredible. They put it like this and they, oh, really? Okay, what’s their name? So I’d go and talk to that person, or I’d see something on Instagram, or I’d see a program. I’d watch something on Netflix and and it would be timed.
I haven’t spoken to a dark person. You know, a Thai restaurant? Yes. Let’s go find them. Um, well, my little girl, like, loves sushi. Let me go and talk to the guy that runs at her favorite sushi place. So it was. It was a bit higgledy piggledy.
01:21:28.120 — 01:21:28.680 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:21:29.800 — 01:21:30.520 · Speaker 1
Um,
01:21:31.600 — 01:21:40.300 · Speaker 1
and that’s how I ended up really like talking to people who made butter. People who had eggs, people who did cheese. You know, it was all over the map.
01:21:41.900 — 01:21:52.700 · Speaker 1
What I did start to see, though, was that some shows did better than others. You know, and it’s it appeared to me that the chef ones did better.
01:21:52.740 — 01:21:53.460 · Speaker 2
Okay.
01:21:53.780 — 01:22:13.819 · Speaker 1
Then the guy growing onions. You know, it’s quite young and and. Yeah. And and even though funnily enough, the commentary, the, you know, the comments and the reactions
01:22:15.300 — 01:22:24.620 · Speaker 1
were more for like of, like out of, out of the way stuff like, like Dellwood cheese or something like that, you know. Um, but.
01:22:28.700 — 01:22:38.580 · Speaker 1
The, the, the kind of formal food stuff, the restaurants and the chefs, they have Instagram accounts and they have big followings.
01:22:38.620 — 01:22:39.060 · Speaker 2
Yes.
01:22:39.110 — 01:22:56.310 · Speaker 1
So that was why I was always getting boosts. Every time I did someone with a name and who had a big following, and then a lot of people would listen to the show, and then I, you know, a pick up the, the followers from that as well. Um, so
01:22:57.630 — 01:23:19.070 · Speaker 1
I just at 150 arbitrarily just stopped and did season two and only started chatting to chefs and it was just chefs for season two until like three weeks ago because I just I can’t help myself. Yeah, I’m interested in people in the food industry. So, you know, I started like asking other people to chat to me.
Yeah.
01:23:19.230 — 01:24:25.330 · Speaker 2
So I guess I imagine to a certain degree, when you are listening to this kind of content, there’s already a kind of built in sexiness to what chefs do and the restaurant world like, um, I’ve got a bit of hospitality in my background, so I know that that is not the truth behind the scenes, but, you know, front of house is beautiful, exciting.
Chefs have a certain sort of, um, pizazz. Um, a lot of them. Um, and so, you know. Potentially that’s an easy sell, but I actually find the sort of more B2B stuff quite interesting. Maybe it’s my own personal business day to day job that impacts that. But I actually really enjoyed that episode just from a business perspective.
So I wonder if that’s, you know, just part of it. And I really hope that you continue to sprinkle that sort of, um. Supplier, distributor, farmer kind of content into it, because I think there’s potentially a lot of people like me that will enjoy that as well.
01:24:25.970 — 01:25:17.860 · Speaker 1
We’ll enjoy that. You know, listen, I’m about to close the door on season two. I’m episode 47, season two, and I’m going to go season three, and I’m going to go back to doing exactly that. Okay. So thank you for for being the extra the extra thumbprint that I need. You know. But but yeah, because I just think that that the industry is broadly interesting.
One of the things that I wanted to do, um, as well, was, was to talk about issues for the industry. And I found that difficult. So I found it difficult to find people who are prepared to talk to me about issues like mental health or addiction in the kitchen, things because everyone wants to present a pretty picture to the world, you know, um,
01:25:18.900 — 01:25:39.480 · Speaker 1
like there was someone who who commented on a on on one of the food groups that I follow very intelligently about people who who these self-appointed critics who can close a restaurant with, you know, um, and
01:25:40.600 — 01:26:01.560 · Speaker 1
I reached out to him through the group and said, listen, can I talk to you? Because I can’t get chefs to talk to me because they fear for their for their business. Yes. Um, and they’re not prepared to say, you know, that God is an asshole. Um, so, so would you, you know, would you talk to me? And he just, like, ghosted me.
That was a.
01:26:01.560 — 01:26:08.840 · Speaker 2
Yeah. The impact of social media on on a restaurant is it can be tremendous in both directions.
01:26:10.400 — 01:26:11.200 · Speaker 2
Terrifying.
01:26:11.240 — 01:26:16.920 · Speaker 1
I mean, that’s why it’s horrifying. I mean, there’s a big hoo ha going on at the moment. A.
01:26:18.960 — 01:26:20.399 · Speaker 1
A person who
01:26:22.160 — 01:26:26.400 · Speaker 1
went to furriers, which is like a well known pub in Cape Town.
01:26:26.440 — 01:26:26.920 · Speaker 2
Yes, I know.
01:26:26.960 — 01:26:41.970 · Speaker 1
And and ordered a sprite and cola tonic and was charged 66 bucks for it. Right. And absolutely spat venom on her on her Instagram about it. She ended up being interviewed on Cape Talk Radio about it. And my.
01:26:41.970 — 01:26:42.650 · Speaker 2
Goodness.
01:26:42.690 — 01:26:46.330 · Speaker 1
Sister. Yeah. You know, like
01:26:47.730 — 01:27:32.610 · Speaker 1
there’s a thing about willing seller willing buyer. And what you do is you say, hello, may I have a cola tonic and lemonade and say and the person will say, of course, madam, you know, you may say, how much is it, please? 66 rand. Well, I’m not prepared to pay 66 rand. And then the person can say, well, then go somewhere else so that I can use the seat you’re sitting in to pay the rent.
The utilities. Yeah. The staff that you know, and that’s how it goes. But but trying to have those conversations on, on a platform where mine is just like, hey, you know, this shifted this and he went to this cooking school and he likes to cook
01:27:33.790 — 01:27:35.350 · Speaker 1
Lizards. You know.
01:27:36.310 — 01:27:36.910 · Speaker 2
Lizards.
01:27:36.950 — 01:27:38.310 · Speaker 1
It’s a difficult one.
01:27:38.350 — 01:27:57.150 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So I want to go back to something you commented on earlier. You said that certain episodes do better than others. Tell us a little bit about how you measure the impact of your episodes. How how deep do you go? How much do you care?
01:27:59.070 — 01:28:00.070 · Speaker 1
I don’t.
01:28:01.150 — 01:28:02.350 · Speaker 2
And that’s fine.
01:28:02.510 — 01:28:03.070 · Speaker 1
So.
01:28:03.110 — 01:28:03.990 · Speaker 2
So what do you look at?
01:28:04.270 — 01:28:04.910 · Speaker 1
Um,
01:28:06.150 — 01:28:25.590 · Speaker 1
so the thing is that I cared for a bit and tried to work out how to judge whether it was doing well and whether the show was having impact. Yes, because I wanted to try to monetize it in some way. And it’s such a weird thing. And I don’t know if you’ve found this, but but, um,
01:28:26.830 — 01:28:36.920 · Speaker 1
maybe 30% of my guests, at some point they’ll lean forward and sort of reach out, you know, almost to touch my hand and say, how do you monetize this?
01:28:38.000 — 01:29:15.600 · Speaker 1
Because they don’t understand how and and it’s, it’s you know it. That’s a that’s a real question. So I, I, I was trying to find a way to give some figures to people so that I could approach it. And I did approach a whole lot of people. The Nedbank. What what what. And, and never really got anywhere because I think people didn’t understand.
But also my audience is very particular. Okay. It’s shifts and food producers, it’s restaurant operators and people who who like to eat in restaurants, you know, that’s who it is. And, um,
01:29:17.400 — 01:29:26.240 · Speaker 1
there’s no reliable way of measuring who they are or what the impact is that, that you can take to someone and say, see.
01:29:26.320 — 01:29:27.120 · Speaker 2
This black and white.
01:29:27.360 — 01:29:30.360 · Speaker 1
This is what this is. Yes. Yeah. Um,
01:29:31.400 — 01:29:33.339 · Speaker 1
you just have to to kind of
01:29:34.380 — 01:29:51.940 · Speaker 1
hope that people understand that if they endorse your show, sponsor your show back your show, they’re not going to get 1 million orders on Thursday. But yes, they benefit from the reputational enhancement of being associated with you.
01:29:51.980 — 01:29:52.620 · Speaker 2
Absolutely.
01:29:52.660 — 01:30:10.460 · Speaker 1
You know, um, and going back right back to the beginning, that, that that company that I wanted to, to do this for as a way of giving back to the industry to talk to all their customers and get them on and get them to tell their stories and tell them what they’re about. And they were like, not a chance. You know,
01:30:12.020 — 01:30:23.820 · Speaker 1
at one stage I thought maybe I should go to them and say, look what I built. Would you like to back it? But I was actually just enjoying myself too much to allow someone else to own what I could say.
01:30:23.940 — 01:31:32.570 · Speaker 2
Well, I think there’s the whole editorial angle there of now who controls what we speak about and what we cover, which is a tremendous issue to begin with. But taken to that, you know, I’m thrilled that you said that you don’t really care, because, I mean, if we think about the media industry and we go back a whole bunch of decades, there was a time when the measurement that we have now in certain digital medias didn’t exist, and marketing still happened.
In fact, better marketing in some ways happened before things were as measurable, as precise, as black and white as some things are today. And, you know, we often find ourselves having these conversations with clients where we like, what does it matter if you can’t know exactly how many eyeballs? What you’ve done is you’ve presented yourself like this to a much bigger audience.
That than that already knows you right now. Isn’t that a win? So, and I and I love what you’ve said about giving back because my goodness, there’s a lot of business out there that’s doing great things and not doing enough of that.
01:31:33.970 — 01:31:40.010 · Speaker 1
Not well. Absolutely. And just just letting people tell the story. Because you know what? Like
01:31:41.850 — 01:32:04.650 · Speaker 1
which is one of the things that annoys me about the the 66 Rain Sprite and Cola Tonic is the people that I know that work in this industry, and I worked in it. I mean, I had I had a restaurant called The Table of Tammy, which I ran with my wife, and we’ve had a couple of other little kind of dalliances in the in the restaurant game.
Um,
01:32:06.010 — 01:32:45.500 · Speaker 1
it’s hard work, man. Yeah, it’s it’s really, really, really hard work. And it’s it’s it’s not very well paid either, you know, and it’s the margins are small and, and it’s, it’s really difficult to, to, to make a success of in that industry. So, so sometimes just someone telling your story or someone saying, listen, this is okay.
I think that that’s valuable. I mean, I’m trying to do my best to do it myself. And I’ve got myself into a place where, like, literally a little bag and and Da Vinci,
01:32:46.860 — 01:33:10.980 · Speaker 1
it is sweet. And I can carry on doing it because it doesn’t. Apart from my time, it doesn’t cost money to do it. You know, obviously there is little and in fact, there is, um, one person who’s been backing me. They give me a small stipend every month that covers, you know, my kind of, um,
01:33:12.300 — 01:33:20.980 · Speaker 1
uh, you know, the subscription fees for hosting on sprout and all those little things, which is very, very cool of them, you know? Um,
01:33:22.020 — 01:33:22.819 · Speaker 1
but
01:33:23.900 — 01:33:26.820 · Speaker 1
I have total editorial freedom,
01:33:28.180 — 01:33:29.640 · Speaker 1
and that’s the thing.
01:33:29.680 — 01:33:50.720 · Speaker 2
Yeah. So important. I also liked what you did, where you had your sort of offshoot of the, um, the pizza sessions. And you’ve obviously got a sponsor, their lovely sponsor, which is a perfect marriage of those two things. And how did that come about? Did you seek them out?
01:33:53.800 — 01:34:08.879 · Speaker 1
On a whole other side of my life, I spend my life pitching on, on on work, um, you know, writing and branding and brand architecture, kind of. Because, uh, you have to live and and earn. Um, and
01:34:10.280 — 01:34:27.240 · Speaker 1
it’s a it’s an odd thing. So. So I interviewed Ken Kinsey quick because I was interested in hot chili oil. Um, and he was like, oh, this is fantastic. And afterwards, he really enjoyed the show. And he said, oh, we should do this again sometime. Like, yeah, we’ll get around to it. You know, we’re like, um,
01:34:28.290 — 01:34:53.129 · Speaker 1
We’ll come back to it. And then. In a completely unrelated thing, I was. I’ve sort of formed a friendship with the chairman of the SA Podcasters Guild, Jonathan Waronker, and he was talking to Jonathan about doing something. And Jonathan said, you’re the food guy. Don’t you want to come up with something for this?
Because, um, this guy from Bunn, actually oil wants to do something. So I said, well.
01:34:55.090 — 01:34:55.810 · Speaker 2
Yes.
01:34:56.330 — 01:35:15.050 · Speaker 1
Podcast is not going to be very helpful for him. Why don’t we like, do. Why don’t we just do this thing on on pizza. On pizza. Because they promote themselves as something to put on pizza. Yeah. So I put a pitch together basically here, ten episodes of this will do this. And I mean,
01:35:16.570 — 01:35:38.309 · Speaker 1
he was he just jumped right in. He was fantastic. He said, here you go. Okay. Let’s go and listen for him. It must be eye watering amounts of money to spend on ten episodes of of a video production, but also all it did was cover up production costs, so we’d haven’t made anything out of it. But it’s a it’s a like a
01:35:40.190 — 01:35:57.509 · Speaker 1
sounding board, a proof, you know, a proof of concept. Yes. There we go. Yes, there’s a good marketing word, a proof of concept. Um, and it’s the strangest thing. So one of our episodes just passed through 19,500 views. Wow. And
01:35:58.870 — 01:36:00.750 · Speaker 1
and it’s been up for three weeks.
01:36:01.070 — 01:36:02.030 · Speaker 2
Fantastic.
01:36:03.270 — 01:36:35.410 · Speaker 1
Like, I haven’t got anything like that in any of my audio shows. And that was that was the huge thing that I, that that I suddenly dawned on me with video with the video side of it, you know, we’ve heard for years how people are so shallow. They don’t do long form, you know, don’t follow long form and long and audio podcasting is the long form of publishing these days.
And and and no one listens to it. And I’m like, yeah. And I want to listen to it because I’ve got like, you know, 526 people listening to this show, you know.
01:36:37.130 — 01:36:40.929 · Speaker 1
But like in the first week of
01:36:42.410 — 01:36:47.090 · Speaker 1
I can’t remember which it was the first week of, oh, no, no, it was that one.
01:36:47.450 — 01:36:49.290 · Speaker 2
Nova was the Nova one. Okay.
01:36:49.330 — 01:36:53.250 · Speaker 1
And the first week. Yeah, I did 7500 in the first week.
01:36:53.410 — 01:36:55.530 · Speaker 2
Phenomenal. Did you do a better.
01:36:56.010 — 01:36:56.850 · Speaker 1
Did you come from.
01:36:57.530 — 01:37:02.330 · Speaker 2
What did you do different? Did you do a big batch of shorts on YouTube that went with that?
01:37:02.370 — 01:37:14.890 · Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There was, there were some shorts and um, but that’s not my excuse. So Jonathan’s a millennial and he calls me a boomer.
01:37:15.970 — 01:37:17.130 · Speaker 1
He’s a bastard.
01:37:18.730 — 01:37:47.500 · Speaker 1
But I’m a Gen X. Um, but he has better understanding of that stuff, so. So I started kind of teaching myself video editing. And, you know, I was getting along just fine. Very proud of myself. Learning another technical skill. Miller. Um, but he’s just so much quicker. So he he’s taken that that kind of thing off, off the table for me.
And I’m, I’m just there, you know, to look good and entertain the truth.
01:37:47.540 — 01:37:55.220 · Speaker 2
Amazing. So that was one of my questions. What is your what is your team look like. So it’s not just you you’ve got Jonathan assisting.
01:37:56.460 — 01:37:58.980 · Speaker 1
I thought you were going to say, what’s my beauty routine?
01:37:59.420 — 01:38:00.580 · Speaker 2
You can tell me that as well.
01:38:00.580 — 01:38:07.540 · Speaker 1
Disappointing, Janet. Yeah. I mean, do you moisturize? I thought that was the kind of questions that we get into here.
01:38:07.580 — 01:38:09.020 · Speaker 2
Twice a day, I hope.
01:38:09.860 — 01:38:15.459 · Speaker 1
Twice a day. Yeah. Um, so that’s the thing. I am a bit of a
01:38:17.220 — 01:38:20.219 · Speaker 1
look. I became a photographer as much as
01:38:21.260 — 01:38:53.440 · Speaker 1
anything because I like Fiddling with mechanical things. So I started being a photographer. Back when there were manual cameras and film. Right. And, um. Like I said, I wrote my first articles for a couple of years. On the typewriter, you know. So it’s a while back, but, um, I like mechanical things. And I like fiddling with stuff and getting absorbed in, in a process.
So. So
01:38:54.600 — 01:39:33.530 · Speaker 1
until Jonathan and I kind of connected and started doing this in May this year, I did everything myself and I edited my own Instagram clips and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And I made I tried to video my podcasts and they are up on the YouTube channel as well, but that didn’t get a lot of traction. I didn’t know how to market it.
So that was my failing was not knowing how to how to drive the marketing, but it didn’t necessarily matter. Just, you know, put up a camera and just film the static thing of us talking. Um, so
01:39:34.930 — 01:39:58.050 · Speaker 1
I still run all the stuff related to my, um, audio podcast, including the Insta and that sort of stuff. And I keep keep on learning as I’m going. But, um, even though I set myself up to learn the video side of things, just Jonathan accelerated past me so quickly because he’s native to the technology. You know, he he understands it so well.
01:39:58.090 — 01:39:59.370 · Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
01:39:59.490 — 01:40:09.490 · Speaker 1
Um, and so that’s what I kind of would suggest. And you asked me about my team. My team is me and John. And then we’ve got a young cameraman who he was. He was a video editor.
01:40:09.530 — 01:40:10.090 · Speaker 2
Yeah.
01:40:10.930 — 01:40:27.030 · Speaker 1
Who wanted to stop editing purely and start shooting. But he wanted to shoot food. And because I’ve got a food photography background, I said, well, I’ll show you. And then, um, when Ben Hook came on board, we were able to afford to pay him to shoot.
01:40:27.070 — 01:40:27.590 · Speaker 2
Yes.
01:40:27.630 — 01:40:36.110 · Speaker 1
You know. So so yeah, that, that kind of, that kind of all worked out. So the team for the podcast, the audio podcast is.
01:40:36.430 — 01:40:36.990 · Speaker 2
Yep.
01:40:37.630 — 01:40:40.310 · Speaker 1
Bob here. Um, but
01:40:41.430 — 01:41:00.390 · Speaker 1
Table Talk a channel and we’ve now gone we’ve sort of launched this food channel and we’ve got a couple of other projects that are in the offing. Um, you know, like sushi sessions and those sorts of things. Those need a team. Yeah, they definitely need a team, you know.
01:41:01.110 — 01:41:11.430 · Speaker 2
And what made you decide on your frequency? So you shoot every Monday. Was that a decision that you made long ago and you’ve just continued in that cadence or.
01:41:12.750 — 01:41:23.640 · Speaker 1
Just just mad obsession? I think so. I couldn’t do more because I had to actually earn a living. Yeah. Um, but.
01:41:25.920 — 01:41:39.960 · Speaker 1
It just became this this this this pattern. You know, every Tuesday outcomes, the show and and sometimes like like I’d have ten lined up, but I haven’t got next week’s show yet. So,
01:41:41.440 — 01:41:42.040 · Speaker 1
um,
01:41:43.160 — 01:41:44.640 · Speaker 1
what are you doing tomorrow?
01:41:45.160 — 01:41:48.640 · Speaker 2
But I’m coming. Will it be ready?
01:41:48.680 — 01:41:57.039 · Speaker 1
Yeah. Come on. We can record on Riverside, but this is. This is the thing is that, um, it
01:41:58.240 — 01:42:09.040 · Speaker 1
there’s no rule to the regularity or the cadence. It’s just that it goes out every Tuesday. So that’s what I thought I’d keep doing. Yeah. You know, and it seems to work. Yeah.
01:42:09.080 — 01:42:12.360 · Speaker 2
Like, well, that consistency actually becomes important.
01:42:13.560 — 01:42:17.480 · Speaker 1
Yeah. It does. I just think that that.
01:42:20.380 — 01:42:31.540 · Speaker 1
Someone said once that the secret power of podcasts that hang around is their long tail.
01:42:32.220 — 01:42:32.980 · Speaker 2
Yes.
01:42:33.380 — 01:42:38.020 · Speaker 1
And I’ve got 150. No, I’ve got a hundred.
01:42:38.060 — 01:42:40.340 · Speaker 2
You’ve got more. I looked at it this.
01:42:40.340 — 01:42:45.299 · Speaker 1
Morning for 93 shows, 193 shows up, and
01:42:46.460 — 01:42:47.500 · Speaker 1
every week,
01:42:48.660 — 01:43:30.590 · Speaker 1
like every day there, like somewhere between 40 and 50 downloads. Yeah. And it’s it’s not visible in the latest shows. It’s just that like three people watch that one, one person watches that one, another one watches that one. Someone goes back and, and and it’s interesting that the very, very early shows still rank high.
Yeah. You know, in the firmament because people a lot of people don’t just like if I tap into a new podcast now, I’ll just go back 4 or 5 and start listening, you know? Whereas like at the beginning, I used to find a new podcast and I’d go all the way and start from one.
01:43:31.630 — 01:43:35.189 · Speaker 1
But there’s so much out there. So, so
01:43:36.310 — 01:43:47.430 · Speaker 1
the, the numbers for me, like, I know I’ve got 40 something thousand downloads. It’s, it’s just about how many podcasts I’ve got. You know.
01:43:47.470 — 01:43:48.830 · Speaker 2
Yeah. And that.
01:43:49.030 — 01:43:50.230 · Speaker 1
Just keeps it turning.
01:43:50.510 — 01:44:23.890 · Speaker 2
That back catalog of content. It doesn’t go away. All it’s doing is compounding your discoverability over time. So the the guys that are successful really are just the ones who are consistent. And, you know, the ideal is that they’re consistent and their content is interesting. They are, you know, podcasts out there that are consistently boring.
Um, but, you know, the ability to have a looked on your YouTube channel just this morning, there were 315 videos there. And it’s not it’s not an insignificant number. So yeah, it’s amazing.
01:44:24.050 — 01:44:59.970 · Speaker 1
We’ve released, um, I think it’s 6 or 7 episodes of Pizza Sessions now, and we are, we’ve got five of table for two. We’re it’s just like John and I go to a restaurant and talk about it, you know, um, like, talk about our meal and, and I terrorize him because he, he was raised in a home where no one forced him to eat his grits.
So he’d never eaten a prawn, never eaten crab, never eaten oysters. There’s, like, a whole lot of stuff that he hasn’t never eaten tongue, you know, so I’m lucky. So I look for venues that I can terrorize them with.
01:45:01.130 — 01:45:04.410 · Speaker 2
He’s lucky to have you. Maybe he doesn’t realize it.
01:45:04.810 — 01:45:08.330 · Speaker 1
Yeah. It’s a new lease of life from the poor fellow, you know? Awful.
01:45:09.490 — 01:45:26.380 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Maybe that’s. That’s a line. Anyway, Russell, I have one more question for you. And and that is about sort of the future or expansion. Do you think you would ever sort of start expanding beyond your your Cape Town focus? Was there enough to keep you busy, therefore forevermore?
01:45:27.780 — 01:45:30.060 · Speaker 1
It’s funny you should ask.
01:45:31.100 — 01:45:32.780 · Speaker 1
Um, look.
01:45:37.100 — 01:46:00.900 · Speaker 1
Without wanting to discount any other locations, Cape Town is the center of South Africa’s food universe. You know, and there are some fantastic chefs and fantastic restaurants in other cities, particularly in Joburg. Um, but I found this whole thing.
01:46:02.940 — 01:46:19.279 · Speaker 1
Out of a sort of a diminishing writing career. You know, like, I can’t I can’t go to Joburg. And so it’s simply a practical decision that it’s mainly Cape Town. Like I got a gig in Durban
01:46:20.320 — 01:46:45.120 · Speaker 1
like I think it was in the first year I was running the show. So. So I just found four people and did like Dodo and Humble Coffee and, you know, a couple of places just to try and try and expand my horizons. And, and I’d love to add Joburg. I’d love to get broader. It’s just it’s not practical. However, I don’t know if, you know, there’s this thing called, um.
Riverside.
01:46:45.160 — 01:46:51.200 · Speaker 2
Hmm. No. Tell us more. Mhm. Yeah, yeah. So that’s not a bad idea.
01:46:51.200 — 01:46:59.280 · Speaker 1
I’ve been fiddling with it and thinking maybe that’s the way to do it, you know. Yeah. It’s just the connection. The connection with the person that you’re talking to is not.
01:46:59.320 — 01:47:00.360 · Speaker 2
It’s not the same.
01:47:00.640 — 01:47:08.400 · Speaker 1
It’s not not as real. It’s not the same. Um, but that would be a way to add that. And then also I could, you know, have video as well.
01:47:08.400 — 01:47:19.490 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, you know, the other thing is just finding maybe another sponsor. So, you know, the the sponsors out there need to open their ears. Because maybe that’s. Maybe that’s a route.
01:47:20.770 — 01:48:15.350 · Speaker 1
Listen, I’ve done beautiful pictures to all kinds of people, and they’re just not. No one’s really cottoned on to podcasting. And if they do, they’re not understanding what it is. Because, you know, we kind of glanced over the fact that that podcasting is the new long form. If you want to deeper dive into any topic.
Go listen to an audio podcast. You know, and like a lot of people who listen to my show, they listen to it because, I mean, when you were growing up, you would listen to the radio while you were doing repetitive tasks like watering the lawn or chopping the onions or whatever the case be. So people listen to podcasts while they’re doing stuff like that, and in particular, when they’re stuck in traffic in a city like Joburg or Cape Town, right.
They listen to podcasts so you can rip through
01:48:16.390 — 01:48:21.709 · Speaker 1
podcasts in the traffic. Yeah, right. Yeah. Um. It’s just it’s just that
01:48:22.710 — 01:48:49.390 · Speaker 1
I think that if sponsors are looking for the immediate return. Okay, we’re backing the podcast, and on Thursday, we’re getting 4 million orders for goat cheese, whatever it is. They’re just dreaming. Yeah, it’s about reputational, um, kind of reputation building, and it’s about visibility, and it’s building an authentic kind of trust.
Yeah. In in the audience, you know, it’s like.
01:48:49.430 — 01:49:59.280 · Speaker 2
Oh, and a real human one because that’s the thing that’s going to be eroded quite quickly in the age we’re in now. That human connection. I honestly think the, the, the wheel is turning on, on the sort of sponsors view of content like this. Um, and I particularly think there’s certain sectors that will always do really well with with our long form content.
It’s, it’s if you think about the fact that cookbooks are always popular, magazines that cover food, always popular, you know, I guess it’s on a scale. Um, you know, the printers is dying. A slow, slow and slow and steady death. Um, TV about cooking and food, always popular. So, you know, the category I think is important, um, in determining whether or not, you know, there’s longevity for this kind of content, but I really feel like the one you’re in is, is always going to be a space where people are interested to listen.
It’s it’s an exciting and fun space.
01:50:00.520 — 01:50:35.020 · Speaker 1
They they are. I mean, as I say, I think that I would like to be able to educate people a bit more about what it means to run a restaurant and what it takes to run a restaurant. Um, and, and I’m sometimes not able to dig as deep. So we get we get the stories, we get the understanding of where people come from, and that’s the thing.
But but the issues that face and like, um, you know, trying to trying to find reasonable rentals and, and those sorts of things. But
01:50:36.860 — 01:50:52.900 · Speaker 1
I think that’s going to be my thrust going forward, is to try and find a way to dig a little deeper than just telling people’s stories and and having a nice chat with someone, you know, that, that, that that will be the, the kind of next mission, I think.
01:50:52.940 — 01:50:58.180 · Speaker 2
I love that mission. I love that for you. And I love that for us as your listeners, please go forth.
01:50:59.660 — 01:51:29.510 · Speaker 1
Well, thank you for thank you for listening. It’s, um it’s it really it really is a wonderful thing to be able to do and to be able to connect with all these people. And I’m also finding that the, the, the breadth of the connections that that I’ve made through, through podcasting has it’s, it’s it’s incredible, you know, the stuff and I suppose that’s what it is.
I learn so much by doing this. So that’s, that’s what keeps me obsessively chasing it, you know.
01:51:30.150 — 01:51:44.590 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Amazing. So thank you so much for your time. It’s been a wonderful chat. I’ve. I’ve, uh, I’ve weirdly covered a lot of what I wanted to ask you, but also a whole lot more that I hadn’t anticipated. So. Thank you.
01:51:45.790 — 01:51:52.350 · Speaker 1
Uh, well, thank you so much. I mean, it’s actually great to be able to sit and talk and to be on the other side of the.
01:51:52.790 — 01:51:54.150 · Speaker 3
Yeah. How does that feel?
01:51:55.350 — 01:52:03.030 · Speaker 1
Yeah. It’s interesting. It’s interesting. It’s different, you know, but it’s been it’s been wonderful chatting to you. Thank you.
01:52:03.070 — 01:52:09.670 · Speaker 2
Jenna, thank you so much for giving us your time. We appreciate it. And we’ll let you know when this app goes live.
